How to Time Trial to find out what shape you are in

sounder wrote:

younger faces at races???

I mean, I ran a recent race, and looking at the post race photos, and some of the folks in their 20's and 30's that finished around the time I did (20min over a 5k) were smiling, while I was in agony.

sounder wrote:the 5 x 1000m you could perform at actually 3k pace what mc millian subscribe.

Yeah, that is a good point, because Daniels says 1000m Intervals, with ~3min rest can be performed at 3k-3200m pace. Hmmmm...

sounder wrote:a real race calculator would be great for running solo time trails.

Not exactly sure what you mean here, but this calculator is pretty good, and I took its name for my handle, on a whim. :-)

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

I think I could back off and just run more slower aerobic volume instead of workouts, but I would likely not progress in fitness as rapidly. However, I might start to be running on a fine line, because the HR thing is a little concerning,

So there is a little vacillation in my approach, going forward. I'm making progress, but...

You wonder which coach, given the opportunity, I would like to bounce ideas off of and get some feedback at this juncture? Peter Coe. Not Horwill. Peter.

HRE wrote:

Just run hard for 5k, if that's your distance, and time yourself. If you struggled in the later bits you go out easier in the next one. If you finish knowing you could have run faster then go out a bit harder in the next one. The point of a trial is to learn something you don't already know.

That's exactly the right approach. My personal experience is that ONE time trial doesn't tell you where you stand, and the same is true for other testing approaches. You need some iterations to learn how hard you can go for a certain distance.

Due to the lack of races I did a few TTs this spring, and in fact I improved my 10k TT by 2 minutes (and yes, I was a bit race rusty). But the real learning was that in my 3rd TT I knew which effort I could handle over the full distance. That's not easy because even if you go 5 sec per km slower, it still feels really hard.

There's s an AZ road racers 5k at tempe town lake this Sunday May 16...assuming phxrunner17 lives in Phoenix. Just use this as a rust buster and you'll know where you're at. Problem solved. No elite runners do these AZRR events, but the top runners are usually 15:xx.

Maybe over time you've learned to come closer to your maximum effort in races, whereas the relatively new runners in their 20s doing 20 minute 5k's have not learned to take on that much pain. I'm working on it by doing squats and lunges, but lately my heel has hurt so much for the first half hour of runs that I've been limiting through them with grimaces looking like an old man.

A single 1000m test will tell you most everything you need to know.

You need to be able to run < 3' for 1000m to run < 17 for 5000m.

The recovery will be much quicker than from a 5000m test.

Another approach would be run 84-85/lap for 3200m.

It needn't be all out effort but even if it is, you'll know where you are at.

HRE wrote:

Just run hard for 5k, if that's your distance, and time yourself. If you struggled in the later bits you go out easier in the next one. If you finish knowing you could have run faster then go out a bit harder in the next one. The point of a trial is to learn something you don't already know.

Bingo!! Trial and error. What I like to do is go out easier and progressively pick up the pace of that goes well then the next time go out a little faster...it is trial and error so I agree!!

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

I think I could back off and just run more slower aerobic volume instead of workouts, but I would likely not progress in fitness as rapidly. However, I might start to be running on a fine line, because the HR thing is a little concerning,

Update: I found out my HR monitoring capability went bad around the time of this test (most likely due to a faulty chest strap).

dsrunner wrote:

A single 1000m test will tell you most everything you need to know.

You need to be able to run < 3' for 1000m to run < 17 for 5000m.

Per the Jack Daniels Calculator, a 2:59 1k is only worth a 17:13; 2:56.6 is required for a 17 flat 5k.

dsrunner wrote:The recovery will be much quicker than from a 5000m test.

Point taken.

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

sounder wrote:the 5 x 1000m you could perform at actually 3k pace what mc millian subscribe.

Yeah, that is a good point, because Daniels says 1000m Intervals, with ~3min rest can be performed at 3k-3200m pace. Hmmmm...

Update: For clarification, the Jack Daniels Calculator 'Intervals' are prescribed at 98.6% of their pace over a 12-min Time Trial (i.e., one's vVO2max pace).