Not a debate, but seems like US authorities underestimating % people who won't get vaccinated. What you think?

You've been shown in multiple threads that excess deaths are not substantially overestimated. Maybe its 450k instead of 500k right now. What a win for the deniers.

Intentionally misstating the underlying cause of a death is not "avoiding liability issues."

~92% of death certificates involving COVID have COVID as the underlying cause.

LFH:

On this page is a re-derivation and a link to my original regression. Excess deaths are high. You have no evidence outside of vague accusations against the CDC's algo.

Thankfully, we can simply derive the values ourselves and see that yes, there were a ton of excess deaths.

I look forward to your non-response.

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

Long term studies specifically need to be present to fully understand the potential for mRNA vaccine to promote autoimmune disease. Why do you think things that take sometimes decades to develop would be understood in 1 or 2 months? This is a real concern, of which I posted articles above to show that there is real scientific concern and uncertainty, but still this seems to not be an issue to you. Ok, you don't care if the world's children all develop weird autoimmune diseases in 10 years, your OCD matters more. I get it, we must vaccinate all of the children with new vaccine tech for a virus that does not affect them. Sure buddy, sure.

We don't know the long term effects of COVID either.

Are we confident all these kids getting COVID because they aren't vaccinated won't end up with long term complications???

WE NEED TRIALS!! 10 YEARS OF COVID INFECTIONS!!!11

2600 bro wrote:

The adenovirus vaccines also don't require a adjuvant. I am unsure what you are getting at. How is the mRNA "new tech" when we (life on earth) have been making it for ~2 billion years?

If you are worried about long term autoimmune complications from the mRNA in the vaccine - why are you not worried about it from the virus... which has the same mRNA?

I am getting the feeling I am not the "dumb" one here.

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

Man you are dumb. The mRNA tech is new, those vaccines have the mRNA tech. the other available vaccines have adjuvants intended to boost immune response in elderly people; this is the reason younger people have worse side effects to them than the older people.

That is about the dumbest thing I have ever read. They are not developing massive infections, that is why they are not getting sick. Stop yourself hype boy.

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

Harambe wrote:

We don't know the long term effects of COVID either.

Are we confident all these kids getting COVID because they aren't vaccinated won't end up with long term complications???

WE NEED TRIALS!! 10 YEARS OF COVID INFECTIONS!!!11

That is about the dumbest thing I have ever read. They are not developing massive infections, that is why they are not getting sick. Stop yourself hype boy.

Well they still get a decent dose of virus and viral mRNA + capsid proteins etc and for a much longer period than the short mRNA vaccine clearance times.

I don't understand why we aren't concerned about the long term effects of exposure to those components of the virus?

You guys taught me so much about fearmongering I'm trying to keep up!

Harambe wrote:

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

That is about the dumbest thing I have ever read. They are not developing massive infections, that is why they are not getting sick. Stop yourself hype boy.

Well they still get a decent dose of virus and viral mRNA + capsid proteins etc and for a much longer period than the short mRNA vaccine clearance times.

I don't understand why we aren't concerned about the long term effects of exposure to those components of the virus?

You guys taught me so much about fearmongering I'm trying to keep up!

Harambe wrote:

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

That is about the dumbest thing I have ever read. They are not developing massive infections, that is why they are not getting sick. Stop yourself hype boy.

Well they still get a decent dose of virus and viral mRNA + capsid proteins etc and for a much longer period than the short mRNA vaccine clearance times.

I don't understand why we aren't concerned about the long term effects of exposure to those components of the virus?

You guys taught me so much about fearmongering I'm trying to keep up!

Random healthy cells producing antigens and its effects are not understood. It is very plausible your immune system could target these cells. What this results in we do not know, yet, and for the young we should proceed with caution.

Ok your knowledge of immunology is too low to have a real discussion. All cells are presenting antigens all the time. Your body positively and negatively selects for the antigens that 1) are not self 2) are from dangerous pathogens. Nothing about the mRNA vaccine process is different from viral infection aside from dose. You’re sidestepping the entire issue that virus delivers a higher dose, of long mRNA and can replicate, but it’s the vaccines that will cause autoimmune issues!

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

Harambe wrote:

Well they still get a decent dose of virus and viral mRNA + capsid proteins etc and for a much longer period than the short mRNA vaccine clearance times.

I don't understand why we aren't concerned about the long term effects of exposure to those components of the virus?

You guys taught me so much about fearmongering I'm trying to keep up!

Random healthy cells producing antigens and its effects are not understood. It is very plausible your immune system could target these cells. What this results in we do not know, yet, and for the young we should proceed with caution.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7833091/

Anthony Aho wrote:

My gut tells me it was relatively easy for a nation to convince a general public to take a vaccine 30 years ago. But now that we've had something called the Internet around to most people for a good 20 years, it's going to be much much harder. The Internet (as opposed to tuning into a radio/TV station passively) allows society to take an active role in what information is received, not to mention the algorithms marketing companies have been geniuses with to tailor their messages to specific populations seeking out that very type of information/misinformation.

Compared to the 1980s and 1990s, due to Internet, many have very different ideas as to what is real and what isn't as the Internet has shaped their world view. It's why sometimes we can't agree on what we consider to be factual.

Careful as to what you think is factual. Be very careful. In addition, its not just something you find on the internet that's making a difference in peoples decisions. Its also the fact that you can communicate a lot more quickly and effectively with a lot more people. People trust each other more than an authority viewed as corrupt.

2600 bro wrote:

Either way:

What’s long term? COVID-19 mRNA vaccine trials started a whole year ago!

Phase II of the Pfizer mRNA vaccine completed in June 2020 so it has not been a full year for this group.

Of this group, 12 persons received the current protocol of 2 shots of 0.3ml of vaccine.

- As I posted on another thread, as of today, there have been zero test subjects vaccinated for one year with the Pfizer vaccine.

-In June 2021, it will be 12 (36 if you include those dosed with 2x smaller doses and 1x larger dose.

- In December 2021, it will be 18,600.

If anyone chooses to believe that the lack of short-term side effects means that there will be no long-term effects two to five years down the road, that's their choice.

Me? I intend to wait. Let's really, really hope that my caution proves to be unwarranted because by the time we have long-term one-year data on 12 test subjects, over 200 million Americans will be vaccinated.

Pretty sure Moderna began Apr 22, 2020. The first mRNA vaccine Ph I trials (any target) were in 2013. No one can stop you from waiting, just seems sillier and sillier to claim “not enough data.”

Bro chooses this because he does not really understand the world he claims to study. Yes, there is a huge difference between unattacked cells presenting pathogenic antigens (dip$&+$; I know cells release all of the time) and a viral attack. Nobody understands this impact yet, hence the concern among scientist and the need for long term data. There is no way around this, what the vaccine is doing is not a normal process. You can't just declare it is not an issue until we have the data showing so. Until that point these vaccines would be best saved for those who urgently need then rather than young kids who really don't need a vaccine for this virus at all. This is NOT fear mongering, it is urging patience in the scenarios where an urgent effort is not needed. I don't really understand your need to get the mRNA vaccines approved for kids. There are vaccines with normal and more tested strategies on their way.

2600 bro wrote:

Ok your knowledge of immunology is too low to have a real discussion. All cells are presenting antigens all the time. Your body positively and negatively selects for the antigens that 1) are not self 2) are from dangerous pathogens. Nothing about the mRNA vaccine process is different from viral infection aside from dose.

You’re sidestepping the entire issue that virus delivers a higher dose, of long mRNA and can replicate, but it’s the vaccines that will cause autoimmune issues!

Lead Foil Hat wrote:

Random healthy cells producing antigens and its effects are not understood. It is very plausible your immune system could target these cells. What this results in we do not know, yet, and for the young we should proceed with caution.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7833091/

You have been side stepping this entire issue whole time. Geez you are arrogant. The issue is not length with respect to the concern here....it non infectious distribution throughout the body versus infectious (often leading cell death and illness) distribution in specific localized cells. Children who don't get sick don't have the virus infecting cells throughout their body yet the vaccine turns many many cells distributed throughout the body into pathogen factories. The length does not matter if they virus only attacks small group of cells.

You keep making this same point, which is a non point if people are questioning the numbers. Doctors are not intentionally lying....many times they are uncertain but protocol in most states is list covid as the underlying cause if there is a positive tests or no test and it is assumed to be covid. People are not perfect, hence they follow protocol...we are saying the protocol overestimates covid deaths. There is no need for malicious intention for this to happen.

There’s really no difference in the periphery. It’s why mRNA vaccines work. This is dumb. You’re never presenting any evidence just name calling and being overly emotional. The establish will prevail and you will be upset. C’est la vie.

No it’s restricted primarily to the lymphatic system in the vicinity of the intramuscular injection. Pathogen factories. LOL. A spike protein is not a virus. You are Dunning-Kruger personified :) Again. Pharma defeated the virus. Get over it.

Lead Foil Hat III wrote:

Harambe wrote:

You've been shown in multiple threads that excess deaths are not substantially overestimated. Maybe its 450k instead of 500k right now. What a win for the deniers.

Intentionally misstating the underlying cause of a death is not "avoiding liability issues."

~92% of death certificates involving COVID have COVID as the underlying cause.

You keep making this same point, which is a non point if people are questioning the numbers. Doctors are not intentionally lying....many times they are uncertain but protocol in most states is list covid as the underlying cause if there is a positive tests or no test and it is assumed to be covid. People are not perfect, hence they follow protocol...we are saying the protocol overestimates covid deaths. There is no need for malicious intention for this to happen.

This is absolutely not true. Doctors were instructed to list probable COVID deaths when testing was very limited and to their best judgement the symptoms matched COVID: respiratory arrest, etc.

Nowhere was there a default of COVID as the underlying cause of death with a positive test. Doctors were explicitly instructed NOT to do so by the CDC unless COVID was deemed to be the true underlying cause.

Moreover, the pattern of positive tests waves leading to hospitalizations and then COVID deaths and excess deaths holds across time and space in the USA. This suggests the deaths were real and not artifacts of misreporting or bad testing or whatever. Only places that had lots of COVID tests had deaths and excess deaths...

The best you’ve done so far is to cast doubt onto maybe 50k of 500k excess deaths. That does not exactly refute COVID my dude.

Your argument of “the protocol was for doctors to abandon their training and lie on the death certificate” is bold and one of the two remaining arguments deniers have:

1) the numbers are all fake

2) ok people died but I don’t care

Unfortunately there are a lot of very stupid people out there.