Lindsay Crouse calls effort to keep biological men out of women's sports an "excuse for transphobia"

GD wrote:

There are likely lots of causes of gender dysphoria, but none of them logically lead to the conclusion that tranwomen are literally women and that transmen are literally men. Trans identity is a social fiction meant to ease the pain of gender dysphoria.

Not all trans people have gender dysphoria. Not synonymous terms.

Dwightarm wrote:

GD wrote:

There are likely lots of causes of gender dysphoria, but none of them logically lead to the conclusion that tranwomen are literally women and that transmen are literally men. Trans identity is a social fiction meant to ease the pain of gender dysphoria.

Not all trans people have gender dysphoria. Not synonymous terms.

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Did you see the part of my comment about the way that trans idenity has morphed over time, such that it no longer means that a person feels that their body is wrong, or that they have the subjectivity of the opposite sex?

This debate is a neverending series of motte & bailey fallacies. On the one hand, we're told that gender dysphoria is an objective phenomenon (read the science, dimwits!) that will drive people to suicide if we do not allow trans girls and women to be categorized as women in each and every social sphere. The very low number of people that identify as trans, historically, is used as evidence that people are being paranoid about trans inclusion in girls and women's sports.

I pointed out that trans is a flexible category that is now coextensive with a political effort to muddy the distinction between sex and gender; some believe that this is the path to true liberation. This means that being trans can be political and not simply about a psychiatric diagnosis called gender dysphoria. There has been a spike in trans identification among adolescents and teens in the past 5-10 years. What this actually means is that we can expect the number of trans girls and women in women's sports to go way up. In fact, this is already evident in Connecticut. If the number of trans people is so low as to be negligible, we would not expect to see two trans girls competing in track & field at the same time.

Finally, it will not take a huge number of trans women to negatively impact girls and women's sports. Does anybody know the incidence of partial androgen insensitivity (I think this is the DSD that Semenya has)? It's very, very low. Yet every single medalist in the 800m in Rio had that condition. Not a single female was on the medal stand. I reject the assertion that women are being hateful or mean for caring about whether females have equal access to participation and accolades.

Scientific evidence shows, overwhelmingly, that males have an advantage over females no matter what the cause (trans/intersex). This is not an alt-right or phobic position. I can't even begin to express how frustrating this debate is. The Loud Left (those who take up the most talking space but don't represent the masses) have become as anti-scientific and totalitarian as the far Right. They're close to comparable in terms of misogyny.

Maybe the problem is that transphobic people are the ones trying to impose unrelated science on the topic. For me, if someone loves their life as a woman, they should compete with women. Full stop. I don’t need to have a PhD in biology to know that women should run with women.

As for the 800m you mentioned, the medalist ran between 1:55.28 and 1:56.89. Those are times that elite female 800m medalists should be able to run.

Melissa Bishop was 4th in 1:57.02. How was able to run as fast as these genetic mutants up front? Seems suspicious, eh?

But, I, who live in reality, saw 8 women line up for the women’s final. The fastest three women crossed the line first. Stop trying to rewrite history and just enjoy the sport.

This is interesting to me. Why, in your mind, should women run with women? What's so special about "women" that they should only run against each other in competition?

Allowing transgender athletes to compete in the women's division has nothing to do with societal support. Over 40 years ago, a the judge in United States Tennis Association vs Renee Richards ruled in her favor:

The defendants made the arguments often seen on LR but the judge believed not allowing her to play would be a violation her rights under the Human Rights Law.

There are two hurdles to banning transgender athletes in the U S. There have to be plaintiffs that suffered significant damage such as lost scholarships, pro contracts or a spot on an Olympic team and a judge will need to rule that the Human Rights Law does not include being allowed to compete in the women's division.

The participation of CeCe Telfer Telfer and June Easwood will not result in any legal action and the Connecticut sprinters case is not applicable to the NCAA and Professional levels. Until there are some elite transgender athletes, there will be no challenges to the status quo.

So woke. What an asinine piece.

I for one want to cream a woman in my next race.

Im with her wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eJKsNRRT-4

She's never wrestled against a transgender female so her opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's. That the guys she wrestled in HS were stronger than her is, hardly a news flash. Fortunately, by training 10 times harder, she was competitive against the boys.

Transgender athletes will not be an issue for MMA. MMA entities have absolute discretion as to what fights they schedule and those with transgender athletes would hurt the sport's popularity. If women have a fear of serious injury they will refuse to fight one.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Im with her wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eJKsNRRT-4

She's never wrestled against a transgender female so her opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's. That the guys she wrestled in HS were stronger than her is, hardly a news flash. Fortunately, by training 10 times harder, she was competitive against the boys.

Transgender athletes will not be an issue for MMA. MMA entities have absolute discretion as to what fights they schedule and those with transgender athletes would hurt the sport's popularity. If women have a fear of serious injury they will refuse to fight one.

Im with her wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

She's never wrestled against a transgender female so her opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's. That the guys she wrestled in HS were stronger than her is, hardly a news flash. Fortunately, by training 10 times harder, she was competitive against the boys.

Transgender athletes will not be an issue for MMA. MMA entities have absolute discretion as to what fights they schedule and those with transgender athletes would hurt the sport's popularity. If women have a fear of serious injury they will refuse to fight one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbCID2Gtax0

I dont know what the thought process was of whoever allowed Fallon Fox to fight but they didn't have to. It would never happen at the UFC level. Their fan base is hardly pro-transgender and scheduling a fight including one, would hurt the sport's popularity. If there was a transgender fighter that could KO women in seconds, other women woukd refuse to fight her and only sick people would want to watch such a fight..

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Maybe the problem is that transphobic people are the ones trying to impose unrelated science on the topic. For me, if someone loves their life as a woman, they should compete with women. Full stop. I don’t need to have a PhD in biology to know that women should run with women.

As for the 800m you mentioned, the medalist ran between 1:55.28 and 1:56.89. Those are times that elite female 800m medalists should be able to run.

Melissa Bishop was 4th in 1:57.02. How was able to run as fast as these genetic mutants up front? Seems suspicious, eh?

But, I, who live in reality, saw 8 women line up for the women’s final. The fastest three women crossed the line first. Stop trying to rewrite history and just enjoy the sport.

______________________

10/10 on the Orwell meter. Full stop. I feel like Luke Wilson's character in Idiocracy.

[/quote]

This is interesting to me. Why, in your mind, should women run with women? What's so special about "women" that they should only run against each other in competition?[/quote]

There it is then.

Its not reality. Men living the wife as women is not the same as being a women.

Anyone with balls, or a long period of time with balls, should not be able to compete in a women's contest. If they want to compete, jump in with the balls.

Women should not have to compete with men. I suspect you'd not support a single gender contest, as it would eliminate all females. Yet you are prepared to allow a genetically male person take all the opportunities away from women.

As for your last ludicrous statement. Women can run with men. Semenya can run with men. No one is stopping her. She has testicles, so why not?

GD wrote:

Finally, it will not take a huge number of trans women to negatively impact girls and women's sports. Does anybody know the incidence of partial androgen insensitivity (I think this is the DSD that Semenya has)? It's very, very low. Yet every single medalist in the 800m in Rio had that condition. Not a single female was on the medal stand. I reject the assertion that women are being hateful or mean for caring about whether females have equal access to participation and accolades.

Semenya does not have PAIS. She had 5-ard. So do Niyonsaba and Wambui. I don't know which elite athlete has PAIS, but I am certain there are some. (This is the most contentious area of "sex verification" in sports today. WA doctors insist on "visual inspection" of feminization of PAIS athletes, which many consider violation of their privacy. This is not a problem with athletes with Complete Androgen Sensitivity Syndrome, because their physique is totally feminine.)

testes snoozer wrote:

This is interesting to me. Why, in your mind, should women run with women? What's so special about "women" that they should only run against each other in competition?[/quote]

There it is then.

Its not reality. Men living the wife as women is not the same as being a women.

Anyone with balls, or a long period of time with balls, should not be able to compete in a women's contest. If they want to compete, jump in with the balls.

Women should not have to compete with men. I suspect you'd not support a single gender contest, as it would eliminate all females. Yet you are prepared to allow a genetically male person take all the opportunities away from women.

As for your last ludicrous statement. Women can run with men. Semenya can run with men. No one is stopping her. She has testicles, so why not?[/quote]

Womens caregories are sexist equality of outcome. Every human shall compete and have success on the basis of their skill. Making extra categories is arbitrary. Why not extra university categories for people born with lower iq

Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:

Semenya does not have PAIS. She had 5-ard. So do Niyonsaba and Wambui. I don't know which elite athlete has PAIS, but I am certain there are some. (This is the most contentious area of "sex verification" in sports today. WA doctors insist on "visual inspection" of feminization of PAIS athletes, which many consider violation of their privacy. This is not a problem with athletes with Complete Androgen Sensitivity Syndrome, because their physique is totally feminine.)

]

Thanks for the correction. I couldn't remember which one they have, only that they all have the same one and that they are biologically male with phenotypes at birth that led to them being raised as girls.

Honestly, I don't find the privacy arguments to be particularly compelling because all athletes selected for random drug screens have somebody watching them pee. I guess this visual inspection can be more intrusive? In any case, it seems perfectly appropriate to me to restrict the women's category to people who are female and do not have DSDs, since being male confers an advantage.

I've heard that women with CASS are still overrepresented in athletics, despite the lack of virilization at puberty. If this is true, I wonder why they are overrepresented. There's probably some biological factor that scientists have not yet discovered.

Funny you should say that. I teach Orwell, so I’m probably much more familiar with the themes and plot of his stories. Also, maybe you need to watch Idiocracy again. It’s much more aligned with the predictions of Bradbury than Orwell, and it openly mocks the kind of people who would refer to a transwoman as a “biological male.”

You’re punching outside of your weight here.

Thank you, Tennessee, for doing your part to support women's sports.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tennessee-transgender-sports-bill

Lenny Leonard wrote:

GD wrote:

______________________

10/10 on the Orwell meter. Full stop. I feel like Luke Wilson's character in Idiocracy.

Funny you should say that. I teach Orwell, so I’m probably much more familiar with the themes and plot of his stories. Also, maybe you need to watch Idiocracy again. It’s much more aligned with the predictions of Bradbury than Orwell, and it openly mocks the kind of people who would refer to a transwoman as a “biological male.”

You’re punching outside of your weight here.

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What am I missing? You have not defended any of your arguments. You also confuse my point that you are being Orwellian--not that the film Idiocracy is Orwellian--by using nonsensical language and redefining terms to conform to ideology. You merely assert things, then accuse me of punching outside my weight.