BTC Gym Work

That’s interesting. Isn’t high weight with lower reps to build muscle? If they’re only doing band and body work then they’re working on flexibility, stability, and maybe some toning. That’s probably all they’re going for though. I suspect they’re hoping the muscle build comes from sprinting and hill reps which both build strength in the leg muscles.

They're a high volume and high intensity program, so a lot of their training stimuli come from running. As a result they will most likely end up pretty damn tired after workouts and will need to focus 100% on recovery.

The goal of doing your strength work on easy days instead is twofold -- one, it allows you to get better quality work in that results in greater strength development and maintenance than if you went into a lift with really tired legs. And two, it will slow down your recovery runs, which on the hierarchy of fitness drivers is lower than the weight work.

NOP didn't pioneer the high weight/low rep/hard day philosophy, but they helped to popularize it in a way. They were also a speed-heavy program, and speed thrives on strength and power work.

Zante wrote:

They're a high volume and high intensity program, so a lot of their training stimuli come from running. As a result they will most likely end up pretty damn tired after workouts and will need to focus 100% on recovery.

The goal of doing your strength work on easy days instead is twofold -- one, it allows you to get better quality work in that results in greater strength development and maintenance than if you went into a lift with really tired legs. And two, it will slow down your recovery runs, which on the hierarchy of fitness drivers is lower than the weight work.

NOP didn't pioneer the high weight/low rep/hard day philosophy, but they helped to popularize it in a way. They were also a speed-heavy program, and speed thrives on strength and power work.

First thing I thought of was NOP. They were also a high volume and high intensity program but they lifted heavy and on their hard days. The Pete Julien squad does this as well.

Many of the best middle and long distance runners in the world seem to do minimal gym work and many lift on their easy days. The Ingebrigtsens also come to mind (although I don't know much about their strength work other than they do gym on a few easy days). I've heard Stewy McSweyn say that he doesn't do much in the gym either.

It’s hard to believe that guys like Lomong, Scott and McGorty aren’t as muscular as they are without a lot of gym work.

There are some weightlifting things I’ve seen from Pascal, their strength coach. It seems to focus a lot on stability and general exercises rather than the powerlifting that NOP/Julian does. Pretty interesting considering both Jerry and Alberto worked together at Nike for a long time

Dairyland wrote:

It’s hard to believe that guys like Lomong, Scott and McGorty aren’t as muscular as they are without a lot of gym work.

There are some weightlifting things I’ve seen from Pascal, their strength coach. It seems to focus a lot on stability and general exercises rather than the powerlifting that NOP/Julian does. Pretty interesting considering both Jerry and Alberto worked together at Nike for a long time

On TV these guys look big and yoked next to their competitors. In person it is very surprising how small they actually are!

NOP does the opposite. Let’s compare team records and medal counts and ask ourselves who is doing better.

Dairyland wrote:

It’s hard to believe that guys like Lomong, Scott and McGorty aren’t as muscular as they are without a lot of gym work.

There are some weightlifting things I’ve seen from Pascal, their strength coach. It seems to focus a lot on stability and general exercises rather than the powerlifting that NOP/Julian does. Pretty interesting considering both Jerry and Alberto worked together at Nike for a long time

They aren't muscular/strong, they just look ripped because of extremely low body fat %. If you want to see a strong runner, look at Solinsky. His strength routine?

"The only type of strength training that I do is core strengthening. The only kind of lifting I do is lifting of my body, meaning doing pull-ups, dips, and pushups, with the focus of it Solinsky shows off his wounds from Stockholm (Photo by Victah Sailer)being body control. By body control, I mean everything is slow and controlled, keeping the body core tight and flexed. The core strengthening sessions are usually 30-60 minutes, done 2-3 times a week depending on the time of year. These focus on all kinds of planks and holding my body weight."

Also it's impossible to gain muscles while running as much as elites are doing. Heavy lifting would be useless, because if done on an easy day they won't recover for the important running session the next day, and if done on a hard day AFTER the hard run there is no energy left to really lift heavy weights. And all the calorie burning and catabolic nature of running makes any muscle gain impossible even while eating a ton.

The "power lifting" of NOP was disproven by a video of Mo Farah himself (and 2-3 others by Galen Rupp) where they were seen using extremely low weight in running-specific motions, but no big sets of 1.5+ BW squats or 2.0+ deadlifts.

I don't think one is better than the other, I think it depends on the individual, how hard the workout was, and how quickly they can recover.

Ideally you would make your hard days hard and your easy days easy. That probably means an AM double, a PM workout and straight to the weight room, or an AM workout, PM double and weight room. That's tough and assumes that you have a high-level athlete that can recover quickly, which is a trait that comes with increased fitness. If you have a guy that will crumble under that load but needs the weight room work to stay healthy and build fitness, you need that work to be high quality. So you move it to an easy day.

I also think the choice between power lifting and lighter "functional" lifting comes down to the philosophy. Same idea if you're a "speed" vs. "strength" coach.

once again what on earth are you talking about... I don't know why you have these absolutist convictions about training or where they come from but it's not as black and white as you perceive it to be.

Due to the interference effect there is no hypertrophy that occurs when endurance athletes doing heavy lifting, but the neuromuscular benefit is the same. In other words, muscles gain strength and function, but not size.

One video on FloTrack does not show the whole picture. Dave McHenry has a lot of resources out there to learn about their training which is counter to what you just said. Their work is periodized. First month or two is all functional work, balance, core. Midway through the season add some heavier lifting. Then decrease the load and increase the speed of the exercise ("power" lifting). Then move on to plyos. This shift takes place over a six month cycle.

No one's saying hard-days-hard heavy lifting is the only way to go. It worked for the top tier of the NOP and for Julian's group because they've pretty much maxed out their aerobic capability. For others, strength training can be beneficial, but their time may be better spent focusing on running.

Apparently Andy Young's Glasgow group does one weights circuit a week, literally not lifting higher than 15kg. Still produced some insanely quick athletes.

Scots McGee wrote:

Apparently Andy Young's Glasgow group does one weights circuit a week, literally not lifting higher than 15kg. Still produced some insanely quick athletes.

Very interesting. These athletes have good speed, too. Laura Muir, GDS was in that group (and certainly hasn't lost any closing speed with BTC), Jemma Reekie.

The purpose of this thread is not only to share a bit about what BTC does for their strength work but to question the current convection of lift heavy, low rep on your hard days if you're a distance runner.

If It Was You wrote:

Scots McGee wrote:

Apparently Andy Young's Glasgow group does one weights circuit a week, literally not lifting higher than 15kg. Still produced some insanely quick athletes.

Very interesting. These athletes have good speed, too. Laura Muir, GDS was in that group (and certainly hasn't lost any closing speed with BTC), Jemma Reekie.

The purpose of this thread is not only to share a bit about what BTC does for their strength work but to question the current convection of lift heavy, low rep on your hard days if you're a distance runner.

Laura Muir on lifting:

‘Time for this was quite limited because of my veterinary studies, so we just had to get in what we could. But usually I’m in the gym once a week. We do two different types of circuit – one body-weight, which would involve press-ups, sit-ups, triceps dips and moves like that; in the other, I work with a light barbell, about 12kg, and do squats, lunges and other leg work.’

She is one of the strongest kickers in the 1500, so she is gonna lift very heavy squats, deadlifts, power cleans, etc. right? That seems to be the consensus on LRC. But it's wrong, she does mostly core training like Solinsky/Mottram/Coburn etc. and not heavy lifting.

Squats make you better at squatting. It undoubtedly makes the glutes stronger, but it's not the same motion as in running.

Here is the thing - elite runners like Muir can handle super hard track sessions 3x a week and get everything they need for running fast from that. Lifting heavy just takes away from the other quality and wouldn't do much for her. So I don't recommend lifting heavy for elite runners, except in rare cases where the form is bad or they can't handle speed work (Radcliffe would be a good example, and she also lifted heavy).

Recreational runners (most of LRC) could benefit a lot from lifting heavy. Here, running mechanics usually aren't perfect, so sprinting/fast reps are a lot more stress. 3x track sessions a week are probably too much (if done at high intensity), so we are down to maybe 1 threshold session and one longer or shorter reps session. THEN lifting heavy could be very helpful in providing some of the things high velocity running would do. But even then, fast hill sprints are probably an even better stimulus (but nothing speaks against doing both, heavy lifting and hill sprints).

Lastly, you will find some examples of athletes who do lift heavy (Coe, Wightman, Hasay) but also a lot who don't (all Kenyans, Solinsky, Mottram, Muir, Coburn, Lydiard coached athletes, etc.). The thing I always like to challenge is how much heavy lifting actually contributed to the performance - it might be smaller than people assume. "I started lifting a year ago and improved my 1500 by 2s!" - but who says it wasn't the additional year of aerobic training, running workouts, and races that accounted for the majority of that improvement? Food for thought.

We lifted heavy after workouts in high school decades ago. Not on easy (non-track) days, because that would make track sessions too difficult.

I only recall running intervals, though, but the principal was there.

Heavy lifting with low reps has been proven to boost testosterone and hgh, as well as strengthen bones, ligaments, joints. So no squatting doesn’t just make you better at squatting.

You don’t see heavy lifting in Ethiopia and Kenya for three main reasons 1. The resources aren’t there 2. They aren’t used to it. 3. Many of these runners are half and full marathoners where lifting isn’t as important.

If you’re competing in any event 10k and under, not weightlifting is just plain stupid. The science is there to back it up.

Shut the thread down, LateRunnerPhil - who has a direct phone line to every professional runner and knows everything about their entire training life, social life, etc - is here to give us the absolute truth.

You're not going to lift yourself to a 27 min 10k, but if done right, it probably doesn't hurt and may help a little. Pragmatically, I'd do it if I were a pro runner. (as a midde aged recreational runner, I DEFINITELY do it).

Dairyland wrote:

It’s hard to believe that guys like Lomong, Scott and McGorty aren’t as muscular as they are without a lot of gym work.

There are some weightlifting things I’ve seen from Pascal, their strength coach. It seems to focus a lot on stability and general exercises rather than the powerlifting that NOP/Julian does. Pretty interesting considering both Jerry and Alberto worked together at Nike for a long time

None of the three Schumacher athletes are big. Lomong and McGorty have gotten noticeably smaller the longer they've been pros.

Dobert's real title should be: Jerry's College Buddy, the Strength Coach.

Dairyland wrote:

Heavy lifting with low reps has been proven to boost testosterone and hgh, as well as strengthen bones, ligaments, joints. So no squatting doesn’t just make you better at squatting.

You don’t see heavy lifting in Ethiopia and Kenya for three main reasons 1. The resources aren’t there 2. They aren’t used to it. 3. Many of these runners are half and full marathoners where lifting isn’t as important.

If you’re competing in any event 10k and under, not weightlifting is just plain stupid. The science is there to back it up.

Would any lifting have a similar effect? Would doing sets of 8-12 with lighter weight also boost testosterone and hgh, and strengthen bones, ligaments and joints?

If It Was You wrote:

Dairyland wrote:

Heavy lifting with low reps has been proven to boost testosterone and hgh, as well as strengthen bones, ligaments, joints. So no squatting doesn’t just make you better at squatting.

You don’t see heavy lifting in Ethiopia and Kenya for three main reasons 1. The resources aren’t there 2. They aren’t used to it. 3. Many of these runners are half and full marathoners where lifting isn’t as important.

If you’re competing in any event 10k and under, not weightlifting is just plain stupid. The science is there to back it up.

Would any lifting have a similar effect? Would doing sets of 8-12 with lighter weight also boost testosterone and hgh, and strengthen bones, ligaments and joints?

I'm sure. If you just go for a jog in the morning you boost HGH and testosterone too.

Zante wrote:

If It Was You wrote:

Would any lifting have a similar effect? Would doing sets of 8-12 with lighter weight also boost testosterone and hgh, and strengthen bones, ligaments and joints?

I'm sure. If you just go for a jog in the morning you boost HGH and testosterone too.

This was my next question. Wouldn't doing a double have the same effect?