There is a strong push for the best American distance runners to compete for months in NCAA XC, while the rest of the world is training year round specifically for marathon,5k,10k, 1500, etc.
I know some will argue that collegiate XC is still considered training, but 1. It’s not focused on international races that matter and 2. It likely hurts some of our best distance runners.
There are some talented runners that have a bad year or a bad experience in college and that is enough to make them quit the sport. Running is only fun when you're doing well and making or challenging your personal bests. People can get discouraged easily and give up. You cant just get fitness back overnight after taking time off either so comebacks are few and far between.
Is there a point in time where the best American 21-22 year old distance runners were not running collegiate cross county leading to more international success?
Is the US currently underperforming on the international stage? The US might not be the world's distance power, but is NCAA XC really to blame for that?
I understand the arguments against the NCAA system, but in reality many (but by no means all) of the best European u20 runners come to the US to get the experience of running in the NCAA.
Stupid thread. As was mentioned, many internationals run XC collegiately in the US. Also, XC is still very popular in Europe. This is a nonstarter.
It’s not just XC. Trying to peak three times a year is an issue. Along with over-racing for conference points in track. Most of these runners come from high school programs where they over-raced already so it’s a quick burn.
The best thing the NCAA could do is move the NCAA cross championships permanently to March, drop the indoor championships entirely and move the outdoor championships to the summer. This would set up the athletes to prepare like world class athletes.
Cultural Revolution wrote:
It’s not just XC. Trying to peak three times a year is an issue. Along with over-racing for conference points in track. Most of these runners come from high school programs where they over-raced already so it’s a quick burn.
The best thing the NCAA could do is move the NCAA cross championships permanently to March, drop the indoor championships entirely and move the outdoor championships to the summer. This would set up the athletes to prepare like world class athletes.
^This. Having three distinct seasons for NCAA cross country runners is stupid. No other NCAA sport has a season that lasts as long. Look how good the top US collegiate runners are doing this year with no fall season. I also think there needs to be a dedicated Distance/Cross Country roster primed at developing runners at 10K and up (half marathons and marathoners) that would focus on cross country (just make every cross country race 10K from now on, none of this “women run 6K” BS) maybe even allowing runners to represent their school at road races. Then there needs to be a dedicated Track Distance roster for runners focused exclusively on 800 to 5K. These athletes would not run cross country.
Indoor track is killing it more than anything. Not much there for distance runners yet they still have to run it and colleges need to have it to be considered a legit program. Too much racing and training for peaks. Indoor is good for sprinters and field events because they don't have a fall season but overboard for distance guys. Just the cut the indoor distances at 1 mile and DMR. No need for 3k and 5k.
The time after the college XC season would actually be great for these guys to jump in some half marathons and other road races. The best XC teams do training that is probably closer to half marathon training rather than 5k/10k training.
I agree. Stupid thread. False premise. The US dominates every country in the world in
Athletics in the Olympics. Every other country should be looking at the US to see what we are doing so that can emulate it.
Solution is simple and solve many issues.
1. Cross country and indoor are run simultaneously in second semester just like on the international calendar.
2. Have xc scholarships 5 for men and 6 for women. If on a xc scholarship you can run xc and outdoor track. Not indoor. If on a track scholarship you can run indoor and outdoor track. Now atheltes are 2 sport atheltes not 3 and all in the second semester. Allows summer to be "summer" and makes coaches coach in the fall. And now there are more scholarships for all sports. And cross country becomes an even scholarship playing field.
3. Cross country becomes 8k for both genders. Now it is for distance runners. And middle distance atheltes can be on track scholarships or forego indoor. Coach/atheltes will have to make smart recruiting choices.
I don't care that it will be geographically difficult with weather for some teams for xc. It is geographically difficult to sprint or play baseball in Maine....and it is geographically difficult to run cross country in houston and tampa.
I don’t think XC is bad but I do think if you run XC you should not be able to run indoor. This would result in more logical training cycles and mid D guys would probably opt out of XC. Also women should run 10k at nationals
I think football should be in the spring and all football players have to run XC in the fall. Baseball should be in the fall and all baseball players have to run outdoor track.
You guys all all trying to break a system that works great.
NCAA competition in general is detrimental to US distance running; it's been that way for years. Does anybody honestly think racing nine months of twelve is an optimal approach?
But the bigger drawback is the push to overwork athletes in general. That's why the sport has a legacy of stress fractures, eating disorders and burnout. Most coaches are simply not incentivized to be good human beings, or to nurture talent for long term achievement.
A few all star programs have enough talent to avoid destroying everyone on the squad, but most programs don't. The advantage goes to the those programs recruiting most talent who can then coast through most early season races. It is that tier of talent that is just behind , but just as motivated or more so that suffers the most.
I can never remember whether American athletes race too much, or not enough.
But America is doing fine on the world scene, as of late, so it seems to be working.
How many races do these guys/girls actually run during cross country? I'm only a casual fan, but for top programs it always seems like 1-2 early season invitationals, conference, regionals, and nationals. Hardly seems like too much racing for the span of July - November.
Complaining about racing what... 5 XC races in the fall? 5 indoor meets? 8 outdoor meets? If I woulda redshirted XC and Indoor I know I could have won GOLD! The total distance is barely 2 full ‘thons from August to June.
Do you honestly think people should train 40 plus weeks per year, race the same event 8 times, then they have a better chance at being Olympic Champs?
The only reason the pros aren’t racing that much is no opportunities. No incentive.
As a COLLEGIATE RUNNER you get all expenses paid:
3 Collegiate seasons with CHAMPIONSHIPS
Top notch coaching/training/facilities
Teammates/Training Partners
Racing gear/flats/kit/warm ups
Prestigious Championship Awards
Team Camaraderie
All expenses paid lodging and dining/travel
Bragging Rights
‘Nuff Said!
Xpert_Xpert_thereal1 wrote:
Complaining about racing what... 5 XC races in the fall? 5 indoor meets? 8 outdoor meets? If I woulda redshirted XC and Indoor I know I could have won GOLD! The total distance is barely 2 full ‘thons from August to June.
Do you honestly think people should train 40 plus weeks per year, race the same event 8 times, then they have a better chance at being Olympic Champs?
The only reason the pros aren’t racing that much is no opportunities. No incentive.
As a COLLEGIATE RUNNER you get all expenses paid:
3 Collegiate seasons with CHAMPIONSHIPS
Top notch coaching/training/facilities
Teammates/Training Partners
Racing gear/flats/kit/warm ups
Prestigious Championship Awards
Team Camaraderie
All expenses paid lodging and dining/travel
Bragging Rights
‘Nuff Said!
This. US colleges do not race nearly as much as they once did. There was a day when most competitions were dual or tri meets, usually one a week and a conference meet at the end of the season. Coaches wanted the wins and conference placings and commonly had distance runners doubling and occasionally tripling at track meets. In those years the critique of over racing and burning people out had merit. Outdoor seasons alone might have meant 15-20 races at some schools. That's more than most collegiate runners race now in an entire year. No one over races anymore. Cross country was always a way to build strength that carried over to track. How badly did cross country affect Lynn Jennings, and Craig Virgin? Did that third place at the 1975 World Cross Country Championships wreck Bill Rodgers for that year's Boston Marathon?
But let's pretend that college cross country really is hurting US distance running on the track internationally. If true, those runners maybe want to consider not running cross country. But that's a really small number of runners. Across the span of college running from NAIA D2 to NCAA D1 you've got thousands of runners who want to run cross country races. You want to take that away from them to benefit maybe a dozen and a half people?
concerned citizen .. wrote:
There is a strong push for the best American distance runners to compete for months in NCAA XC, while the rest of the world is training year round specifically for marathon,5k,10k, 1500, etc.
I know some will argue that collegiate XC is still considered training, but 1. It’s not focused on international races that matter and 2. It likely hurts some of our best distance runners.
I think you barely missed it, I think an indoor season is the culprit. For one it necessitates a peak that is closer to outdoor, and therefore more detrimental, and also it’s just totally and utterly useless. Why on earth did we invent a whole new sport that is exactly the same except marginally SLOWER and right next to the main season. I’ll never understand. Sure the pros can do it so there is something in the winter but why do high school and college kids need it. I grew up in California and I can’t imagine constantly running for 12 months out of the year. Can anyone defend indoor track? Maybe I’ll make a new thread about it? I’ll never understand.
HRE wrote:
Xpert_Xpert_thereal1 wrote:
Complaining about racing what... 5 XC races in the fall? 5 indoor meets? 8 outdoor meets? If I woulda redshirted XC and Indoor I know I could have won GOLD! The total distance is barely 2 full ‘thons from August to June.
Do you honestly think people should train 40 plus weeks per year, race the same event 8 times, then they have a better chance at being Olympic Champs?
The only reason the pros aren’t racing that much is no opportunities. No incentive.
As a COLLEGIATE RUNNER you get all expenses paid:
3 Collegiate seasons with CHAMPIONSHIPS
Top notch coaching/training/facilities
Teammates/Training Partners
Racing gear/flats/kit/warm ups
Prestigious Championship Awards
Team Camaraderie
All expenses paid lodging and dining/travel
Bragging Rights
‘Nuff Said!
This. US colleges do not race nearly as much as they once did. There was a day when most competitions were dual or tri meets, usually one a week and a conference meet at the end of the season. Coaches wanted the wins and conference placings and commonly had distance runners doubling and occasionally tripling at track meets. In those years the critique of over racing and burning people out had merit. Outdoor seasons alone might have meant 15-20 races at some schools. That's more than most collegiate runners race now in an entire year. No one over races anymore. Cross country was always a way to build strength that carried over to track. How badly did cross country affect Lynn Jennings, and Craig Virgin? Did that third place at the 1975 World Cross Country Championships wreck Bill Rodgers for that year's Boston Marathon?
But let's pretend that college cross country really is hurting US distance running on the track internationally. If true, those runners maybe want to consider not running cross country. But that's a really small number of runners. Across the span of college running from NAIA D2 to NCAA D1 you've got thousands of runners who want to run cross country races. You want to take that away from them to benefit maybe a dozen and a half people?
This goes both ways.
Many talented give up or burn out, reasons why already addressed. But the over-race thing is BS. There should be more races, otherwise it's a very long grind with little to show for it.
The biggest problem is how cut-throat most programs are. It's no wonder injuries pile up, the way incoming runners are thrown into the fire. The strong survive, yes, but not all of them. And some difference-makers were lost years back.
The run like 3 races. That’s what killed the sport.
Can anyone defend indoor track? Sure. If people didn't want to do it it wouldn't exist. Not everyone is a scholarship athlete who is forced to run indoors. Many want to. It has a long history in the US back to before WW2. Indoor high school track is very popular where I am and if you're at a college in northern parts of the country where the outdoor season runs from late March to mid May it lets you have a season where you don't freeze nearly to death before and after your race, something that may happen only at your late season meets.
This is Jim Kiler wrote:
HRE wrote:
This. US colleges do not race nearly as much as they once did. There was a day when most competitions were dual or tri meets, usually one a week and a conference meet at the end of the season. Coaches wanted the wins and conference placings and commonly had distance runners doubling and occasionally tripling at track meets. In those years the critique of over racing and burning people out had merit. Outdoor seasons alone might have meant 15-20 races at some schools. That's more than most collegiate runners race now in an entire year. No one over races anymore. Cross country was always a way to build strength that carried over to track. How badly did cross country affect Lynn Jennings, and Craig Virgin? Did that third place at the 1975 World Cross Country Championships wreck Bill Rodgers for that year's Boston Marathon?
But let's pretend that college cross country really is hurting US distance running on the track internationally. If true, those runners maybe want to consider not running cross country. But that's a really small number of runners. Across the span of college running from NAIA D2 to NCAA D1 you've got thousands of runners who want to run cross country races. You want to take that away from them to benefit maybe a dozen and a half people?
This goes both ways.
Many talented give up or burn out, reasons why already addressed. But the over-race thing is BS. There should be more races, otherwise it's a very long grind with little to show for it.
The biggest problem is how cut-throat most programs are. It's no wonder injuries pile up, the way incoming runners are thrown into the fire. The strong survive, yes, but not all of them. And some difference-makers were lost years back.
NAH... Most injuries come from racing workouts, turning your training runs into road races/time trials, or just plain losing interest in sport... Something that happens to a lot of people in a lot of different aspects of life. You just move on to different things through nobody’s fault.
The Collegiate and High School Systems are fantastic for providing basically a semi pro experience for the Student-Athlete. Most of us “Lifers” on the ‘boards trained, raced, and coached in this system in some capacity. The thrill! The excitement of planning the season, goal setting, doing work, training, racing, adapting, assessing the competition, pouring over rankings with your teammates and coaches, team meetings, motivational talks from coaches, perhaps altering the plan, invites, conference, regionals, STATE/NATTYS/CHAMPIONSHIPS/ALL AMERICAN!!!
Seeing something like the number 1 seed/absolute lock being upset by an almost unranked-unknown individual/team... Wow! What a great reminder to all competitors, that’s why we have the competitions! Exciting stuff and we get that 3x per year!
This is going to be a great XC NATTY! So many contenders rounding into form. Plenty to......
DISCUS!