Its not a typo. Gallagher was the course from 93-96 though. Silvio's 23:07 might have been at Lake Valley which was an easy course. Still a good xc time up there.
Its not a typo. Gallagher was the course from 93-96 though. Silvio's 23:07 might have been at Lake Valley which was an easy course. Still a good xc time up there.
Where is or was Gallagher Ranch?
Hog Fan wrote:
Much more than the Ark guys...
true, you rarely hear of a hog being injured. last year in an interview, one of McD's top guys (I think either Cragg or Lincoln) said one of the things that makes him so special is his ability to tell when to take it easy, to just go jog in the park for a while instead of hammering.
wetmore may know how to get his guys right up to the line, but McDonnell has the rare ability to know exactly where it is, and make sure they don't cross it.
Wetmore also builds his teams exclusively with Americans-mostly Coloradans-who may not be as adapted to the training as the Europeans and Africans that usually show up on Arkansas's roster...Also, the coach has control over so little in a runner's life, so to blame him at all is kind of short-sighted. Look at the diets these kids have. Abysmal. I recently talked with a guy training with Brad Hudson who said that Ritz pretty much blames himself for his injuries. Hammering 15 miles when Wetmore had prescribed an "easy 8" and so forth...
What does being an American have to do with getting injured? Or with knowing when to back off?
Double J,
Maybe it is the couch, as you said so yourself. The UA guys trust and listen to McD while the CU guys don't listen to Wetmore and hammer as in your example.
Intense Adams-Western rivalry was born to run
By John Meyer
Denver Post Staff Writer
Adams State cross country runners, from left, Victoria Martinez, Brittany Somers and Michelle Icban get in their work near Alamosa. In the past 13 years, the Adams State and Western State women's teams have finished 1-2 in the nation nine times. (Post / Shaun Stanley)
They are the two best small-college cross country programs in the country - no other school comes close - and they love to hate each other almost as much as they love to win.
Separated by 120 miles of gorgeous Colorado scenery, situated in remote high-country towns where there is little to do besides run and study, the Adams State Grizzlies and Western State Mountaineers have spent decades piling up national championships and building one of America's most entertaining collegiate rivalries.
"It's very, very fierce," Western State senior Kelly Christensen said after a recent workout. "I'm graduating in December. I could have graduated (last) May, but I came back just to beat Adams one more time."
The NCAA Division II championship is an annual tug of war between the Colorado rivals located in Alamosa (Adams State) and Gunnison (Western State).
The past 13 seasons, either Adams or Western has won the women's title. The men's title has gone to one or the other 11 of those 13 seasons. Over that span, the rivals finished 1-2 nine times on the women's side, five on the men's side.
"It's a rivalry that is really based on national championships," said former Adams State coach Joe Vigil, who built the program into a national power in the 1970s and 1980s.
"It's like oil and vinegar," current Adams State coach Damon Martin said.
The rivals will use anything to get under the skin of their nemesis, including insults involving school colors. Western calls Adams the Green Weenies. Adams calls Western the Red Weenies. Adams junior Derek Yorek accuses Western runners of throwing red paint on him during a 2003 meet.
"There is no love lost," Yorek said on his way to a recent workout, smirking at the thought of stirring things up even as Martin cringed. "I don't like a single guy on their team. They're not good guys. They have no class."
In Boulder on Saturday, their rivalry will enliven the Rocky Mountain Shootout, a meet featuring the reigning NCAA Division I men's and women's champions (Colorado won both titles last fall) and the Division II champions. Western won the men's title last season and Adams claimed the women's, bringing their combined national championships total to 41.
Both teams will be hoping to take down the Buffs, consistently one of the top Division I teams. Christensen, who was recruited only by Western coming out of Moffat County High School in Craig, won the CU meet last year, outkicking Buffs star Brent Vaughn over the last 50 meters. Vaughn finished fourth at the Division I championships seven weeks later.
"These are the kids no other school wanted," said Western assistant coach Michael Aish, who won Division II titles as a Mountaineer in 1999 and 2001. "These guys, they won't back down. Every year we race against the bigger colleges, Division I, and (the big schools) hate it because we've got nothing to lose and they have everything to lose."
The Adams-Western rivalry is so pervasive, it added intrigue to the Bolder Boulder citizen's race last May. Aish was a two-time Olympian for New Zealand, but he had to dig deep to hold off Adams State junior Jesus Solis, a graduate of ThunderRidge High School. Aish won by four seconds. "I thought, 'A little bit of (school) pride here, I've got to hold up my end,"' Aish said at the time.
Vigil took over the Adams State program in 1967, winning the first of his 14 men's national championships in 1971. Sam Montoya won Adams' first individual national title in 1979. Pat Porter won the next two years and went on to become a two-time Olympian.
In 1992, Adams and Western left the NAIA to compete in NCAA Division II. That year the Adams State men accomplished something no other collegiate team has, sweeping the first five places at the NCAA meet for a "perfect score" of 15. Western finished second with 56.
"Just getting the uniform instills a huge sense of pride in athletes there," said Smoky Hill coach Greg Weich, who ran for Adams State from 1989-92. "You'd seen pictures of Porter wearing the striped shorts, and all of a sudden you have a pair? It's like a dream come true. Man, when I turned them in, I almost started crying."
Western State coach Duane Vandenbusche, a history professor, began coaching the program there in the early 1970s, first on an unofficial basis.
"There wasn't much of a rivalry" because Adams State dominated all the time, Vandenbusche said. "It took awhile to get to their level. When we got to their level, it really became a rivalry."
Vandenbusche knew little about coaching, but he picked Vigil's brain whenever he could and he learned from experience. He showed a knack for recruiting and motivating runners.
"There's probably guys out there who know considerably more (about running) than Duane does," said Cody Hill, who ran for Western in the early 1990s. "He's one of those captivating guys. I mean, he could have had us run through fire and we would have done it."
Western tied Adams for the NAIA men's title in 1986, claimed its first NCAA men's title in 1995 and has won five of the past six men's titles.
"Some years we're best friends with them and we'll race them to death," Aish said. "Some years there's this bitterness between the guys. It might be because they read into rivalry thing too much. They're the same kind of guys, the guys that didn't get to go to other schools."
Both teams go into NCAA championships believing the title trophy is coming back to Colorado one way or the other.
"I think it's like Duke and North Carolina, being that close to each other and a lot of times whoever wins that game has a chance to win the national title," Martin said. "That makes it a little bit more fierce."
Okay, the newspaper article above highlighting the rivalry and the "no love lost" sentiments between Adams and Western adds some much needed intrigue to another-wise small-time, boring cross country race.
I have the utmost respect for the Colorado runners (CU, Adams, & Western), but I do get tired of having to hear it every year -- how great the Rocky Mtn. Shootout will be because the Division II powerhouses will be rivaling a Division I powerhouse. It's completely bogus. CU wins every year. Adams and Western have some great performances by some individuals, but don't have the depth to beat CU. It's a small meet and it's just not that great.
However, I'd go watch if I could...as I'd love to see the green weenies slinging green paint at the red weenies, and the other way around. Don't call it a great cross country race...maybe more like a WWE matchup on RAW.
Hoovis
Looks like the Grizzlies have already written off Western! Yorek and company better not get too cocky, you can always expect a good fight from Western. Or is this the year they look beyond and have bigger fish to fry (a.k.a CU). Don't forget there's 7 weeks until NC's. Best of luck this weekend!
I read the article and I don't remember any comments that indicated Adams was boasting about winning this season.
If anything, sounds like Christensen is the one making a claim... "but I came back to beat Adams one more time."
Maybe you're from Western and you don't read as well as the rest of us. Just kidding!
Better dead than red.
Out near the Rez
hoovis
were you there in 2002 when western put 9 guys in front of Cu's 5th man? That year they had the depth to beat them.
2002
Place Name Team Time
1. Jorge Torres University Of Colorado 24:07
2. Edwardo Torres University Of Colorado 24:58
3. Josh Eberly Western State College 25:02
4. Chris Siemners Western State College 25:03
5. Steve Slattery University Of Colorado 25:12
6. Rubin McRae Western State College 25:30
7. Philip McPherson Western State College 25:41
8. Billy Nelson University Of Colorado 25:42
9. Kelly Christianson Western State College 25:44
10. Will Banks Western State College 25:48
11. Jason Donald Western State College 25:59
12. Greg Winter Western State College 26:00
13. Tim Parr Western State College 26:04
14. Jon Severy University Of Colorado 26:10
CU -28
Western - 29
Thanks Benji. Yes, Western had a hell of a team that year and ran a hell of a race. My point was that three good teams...hell, three truly great teams in a race competing against each other doesn't make it a GREAT meet. There always seems to be more hype about the Rocky Mtn. Shootout and "what a great meet it is" than Pre-Nats and the caliber of competition at the two are not in the same ballpark. That was my only point. I wasn't trying to offend anybody from CU, Western, or Adams -- as I stated, I have the utmost respect for these schools, the work ethics of their teams, and what they have accomplished. Hoovis
Benji Durden wrote:
2002
Place Name Team Time
1. Jorge Torres University Of Colorado 24:07
2. Edwardo Torres University Of Colorado 24:58
3. Josh Eberly Western State College 25:02
4. Chris Siemners Western State College 25:03
5. Steve Slattery University Of Colorado 25:12
6. Rubin McRae Western State College 25:30
7. Philip McPherson Western State College 25:41
8. Billy Nelson University Of Colorado 25:42
9. Kelly Christianson Western State College 25:44
10. Will Banks Western State College 25:48
11. Jason Donald Western State College 25:59
12. Greg Winter Western State College 26:00
13. Tim Parr Western State College 26:04
14. Jon Severy University Of Colorado 26:10
CU -28
Western - 29
And CU was without their 2nd man, Ritzenhein. That was probably the best shot either WSC or ASC will have had at beating CU in a long time.
Hey Benji...did you post the complete results of the top 14 from the Shootout in 2002? With what you posted it stands:
Western 29
CU 30
Hmmm...thanks for the clarification if possible.
only two guys can displace, so WSC 8&9 don't count in the scoring thus giving CU the 2 pts. needed to pull out the victory. I'm pretty sure that's how it shook out.
This was thoroughly covered in 2002, clarification is clearly outlined in the NCAA rules. Only 7 can displace in a regular season meet (8th runner and beyond do not count for scoring), which means:
CU: 1+2+5+8+12=28
...knew there would be some "by the book" fella' responding in some sort of condescending tone...Oh well, predictability...you gotta' love it!
Read the 2002 thread...hmmm...when it comes down to RAW score here...there are no rules...only teams going head to head in the spirit of the competition. Let's stop the condescending tone and really look at the RAW facts...which is really what counts to those who know the sport. At UNM, for example, a few weeks ago...every runner counted. I just feel that you gotta' throw the teams on the course and where they finish is how you score them. Now, back in the "real world" and for official purposes you can go on believing that CU really won that 2002 meet...
Cheers brah!
No more predictable than your long-ago-dismissed sorry excuse for an argument. That you mistake as-a-matter-of-fact for condescencion is all about your self image, so don't go putting it on anyone else. Then again, your clear disingenuity more than earned the way you chose to take it. Gotta love the 'but all the other kids are doing it, Ma!' justification for blatantly overlooking clearly defined and well-known rules for scoring a non-championship or non-qualifier meet. Hope you find ignorance as blissful as it's purported to be. If you'd bother familiarizing yourself with the acutal rules -
http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2005/2005_track_field_rules.pdf
- which were in place at the time and had been for years, then you'd finally find out in Rule 8-7, Article 2.a. that only the first seven runners for any team can count in scoring places. All runners behind the 7th runner for any team are removed for scoring purposes, only the 6th and 7th runners can be counted as increasing other teams' scores without being counted for their own team's score.
Read it and weep, rules trump fantasy every time. Further responses won't change that one iota, either.