DMR Format should be 1600-1200-800-400

I agree, I think it would be a vast improvement and probably the best order. Still, part of me would prefer it go 1600-1200-400-800, but I think that’s just because I personally prefer watching 800m races more than 400 legs.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

I agree, I think it would be a vast improvement and probably the best order. Still, part of me would prefer it go 1600-1200-400-800, but I think that’s just because I personally prefer watching 800m races more than 400 legs.

Yeah that would work as well. Mainly the point would just be to have the 1600 first, and then either the 8 or 4 last.

Rageagainstthemachine wrote:

I've been watching the past few NCAA DMRs, and it almost always seems to come down to a tactical 1600 leg.

Why not put the 1600 first, then just decrease down to the 400?

It would give a lot more incentive for the milers to push and stretch it out for the rest of their team. The current format really diminishes the value of the other legs, as it is essentially just who has the best miler.

If you went 16-12-8-4, there would be no tactics, and we would actually know who is the fastest team, not just who has the best miler.

Each leg would have a ton of incentive, and the value of the TEAM goes up.

Tell me how this is wrong

This would be interesting, but it also could take the "racing" element out of to an extent and make it less exciting. Think about it, if there is a 3+ second gap between the anchor leg and the rest of the field then the race is pretty much over. But it's also annoying to watch as the first 3 legs are almost irrelevant when the lead anchor leg lets the rest of the field catch up to them in a tactical race.

I will explain why you are wrong. You are assuming 1600 legs are going to all push. Most DMRs, especially in a championship situation, start with a tactical 1200. Occasionally, there might be a strong opening 1200. However, even if one team runs a strong 1200, it does not particularly matter, since other teams can come back in the later legs. That is what makes the DMR unique. In a 4000m relay, you cannot completely run away on the first leg. Starting with the 1600 leg would accentuate the problem you presented. In the DMR, the 1600 is always the most important leg since it is the longest leg. It would become more important when the 1600 leg is first since there is less of an opportunity to close the gap in the later legs. Even if teams were to push the first leg of the 1600, this would still diminish the importance of the other legs, since it would be harder to make up a gap. The current format allows there to be sufficient opportunity to make up any gaps since there is a variation in successive distances.

They should have each team decide their own order. Total chaos, runners going crazy paces, you wouldn’t really know what’s going on until the final 400. Different strategies, the announcers would be confused.

“And Oregon going with the traditional DMR order, NAU going short to long, BYU going long to short”

This thread is making me realize how much I hate the 400 leg on the DMR.

Change that to another 800 and make the order 800, 1200, 1600, 800.

Then the 1600 can still be a place to catch up after the first two legs.

Just make a 4x800 relay then.

I get that it may be less exciting sometimes, but you can still have competitive 400 legs at the end. Like think about Matthew Boling in his state 4x400 when he made up a huge gap. It isn't insurmountable.

But even more important is I think that it would make it more likely for the best team to win. When each leg is giving it their all, then we will actually see who is best. I care more about that than an exciting finish

I agree with this 100% as well. Distance runners only have 1 relay at the championship level while sprinters have 3

I get the concept of this, but I think the problems with the DMR now would beat out the problems you are suggesting. You are implying that if the 1600 leg gets their team a 3 second lead, there is little chance for the rest of the relay to make it up, but that just doesn't make sense. 1200 legs often vary by 3 seconds if you are looking at the whole field. Like if a team is down by a few seconds, you suddenly have three members of a team trying to make it up. In the current layout, the work of the other 3 legs is essentially wasted when you have a tactical 1600 let everyone back in it.

And I honestly think the milers will push more to string it out. You are saying they won't be able to make it up later in the race. If the milers can essentially put it away early, who wouldn't want to do that? And then for the milers following the leader, they might as well use everything they've got to decrease the distance between them and the leader, because as you said, its harder to make up ground further into the race. I addition, you wouldn't want to waste your best distance guy by splitting at tactical 4:05 to get right into the lead, you want to use him to the fullest, and break it open with a 3:55

Rageagainstthemachine wrote:

I've been watching the past few NCAA DMRs, and it almost always seems to come down to a tactical 1600 leg.

If you went 16-12-8-4, there would be no tactics, and we would actually know who is the fastest team, not just who has the best miler.

Tell me how this is wrong

1) ALL races are tactical.

2) You haven't presented one iota of evidence that changing the order will matter?

Me, personally, I prefer races over time trials.

malmo wrote:

Rageagainstthemachine wrote:

I've been watching the past few NCAA DMRs, and it almost always seems to come down to a tactical 1600 leg.

If you went 16-12-8-4, there would be no tactics, and we would actually know who is the fastest team, not just who has the best miler.

Tell me how this is wrong

1) ALL races are tactical.

2) You haven't presented one iota of evidence that changing the order will matter?

Me, personally, I prefer races over time trials.

I have presented evidence. Changing the order will give more incentive for each leg and make it more of a team event. Then you will actually see who is the best team

I get the idea that it may not be as exciting, but a) we would have to try it to see if that is true, and b) Isn't a time trial essentially what you want? NCAAs should be about determining who actually has the fastest DMR team, not who has a fast miler.

elitisthh wrote:

This thread is making me realize how much I hate the 400 leg on the DMR.

Change that to another 800 and make the order 800, 1200, 1600, 800.

Then the 1600 can still be a place to catch up after the first two legs.

Yeah, the 400 is pretty worthless in the DMR.

Indoors, with 200m laps, I've always thought it would be kind of dope for them to just say "f#*k regular distances" and do like: 2000 - 1000 - 1000 - 600. I always felt like running the "off" distances was pretty fun, especially early in the season. It's good for kids mentally -- if they run the 800 and run 3 seconds slower than their PR, they may get down on themselves even though it's early in the year. If they run the equivalent time in a 1000 they probably don't take it hard.

As for the drama, I think with the current events, it'd be fun to have the 400 last like the OP said. When you have Grant Fisher or Dani Jones on the anchor leg of your DMR, you know you they can make up some ground. In an event where the difference might be 1-2 seconds at most, I think everyone has to be running all out.

I'd do 1200 - 800 - 1600 - 400.

Rageagainstthemachine wrote:

malmo wrote:

1) ALL races are tactical.

2) You haven't presented one iota of evidence that changing the order will matter?

Me, personally, I prefer races over time trials.

I have presented evidence. Changing the order will give more incentive for each leg and make it more of a team event. Then you will actually see who is the best team

I get the idea that it may not be as exciting, but a) we would have to try it to see if that is true, and b) Isn't a time trial essentially what you want? NCAAs should be about determining who actually has the fastest DMR team, not who has a fast miler.

That's not evidence, that's begging the question. You're repeating your premise as support that your premise is true.

malmo wrote:

Rageagainstthemachine wrote:

I have presented evidence. Changing the order will give more incentive for each leg and make it more of a team event. Then you will actually see who is the best team

I get the idea that it may not be as exciting, but a) we would have to try it to see if that is true, and b) Isn't a time trial essentially what you want? NCAAs should be about determining who actually has the fastest DMR team, not who has a fast miler.

That's not evidence, that's begging the question. You're repeating your premise as support that your premise is true.

I mean they haven’t tried what I’ve said, so I don’t have any results to show that it would make them run faster. If they gave it a shot, I think my idea would hold up. You are correct that I haven’t presented any evidence, but I also haven’t been given the opportunity to present any.

In terms of the evidence that the current DMR system makes it all about the milers, look at 2019 NCAAs when Iowa state has an incredible team but a miler that blew it, or Penn Relays when Drew Hunter oukicked Jack Salisbury because he was messing around with tactics. In both those, the work of the three other legs was basically irrelevant. Notre Dame had a decent team, but Nuguse is the only reason they won, so I don’t really think that reflects the fastest team. Had Iowa state gotten to come from behind with their incredible 12-8-4 legs, I think they would’ve had a much better shot a winning. And as for Jack Salisbury, I think he would’ve raced like normal against Hunter had they started off with the 16, and only have lost ~4 seconds (something that his team could made up), instead of losing a massive lead because of the tactical 1600 anchor

Yeah this format makes sense except I’d switch the 8 and 4 maybe? I’m not sure except that I just know they shouldn’t end with a 1600

The more I think about this the less I understand your point. How is 2400 meters not enough to make up a big deficit? The 1600 HAS to run fast because there’s a 2400 meters of ground that the other teams have to make up on them. There is a huge incentive to get a big lead.

Additionally, it would separate the best team from the rest, and now suddenly everyone is chasing? Sounds like a recipe for some fast, all-out legs