Tempo Runs-Useless?

Lydiard advocated lots of 1hr runs at 3/4 effort for his 800m / mile runners.

Depending on your definition, those could be considered Tempo runs. But not if you mean "Threshold runs" when you talk about "Tempo runs".

Even so his underlying point was decent-paced runs were necessary to improve aerobic fitness even for middle distances.

It’s the athletes fault. That’s exactly what I’m saying. If you’re running a tempo on the road and get excited the first mile and go out too fast you compromise the rest of the session

Great post. I recognize the benefit of LT pace work when training for the 800/1500, but there are other ways to approach it than a classic 20-30 minutes at 60-minute pace, which is taxing in a way that doesn't really carry over to the 800/1500.

Most runners (and basically all mid-d runners) will find something like 6-8x1k or 5-6xMile at LT with ~1:00 rest much more approachable, while getting essentially the same physiological benefits. The "Magness and Marcus on Coaching" podcast has a great episode on more creative approaches to lactate dynamics:

THIS, I disagree with. For anyone racing the 5k+ seriously, sustained effort and managing discomfort are an integral part of performance and this needs to be trained. You can be have your aerobic capacity, lactate threshold (etc) physiologically tuned from intervals training, but runners need long training efforts to prepare for the expression of that fitness in events of 15/30/60 minutes plus. And of course this is actually quite specific training for the 10k/HM.

I was one of those classic undertrained aerobic guys. There are a ton out there, something like 1:55 800, 4:30 mile, 17:00 5k. Just get worse and worse as the distance increases.

My favorite season I worked with a coach who had me finally focus on tempo and sub-tempo type efforts in the fall and winter. This was of course in the context of intervals, long runs, etc. but I think he recognized I just didn't have much stamina so we worked on it.

By the time the indoor season ended I was doing 70 minutes runs at an effort that felt high-end aerobic that had been a struggle to run 30 minutes the prior fall. Of course this improved my 5k race times. But I was primarily an 800-1500 guy so was it really that relevant?

Well - I was racing faster there too. And I remember a particularly hard hill workout in March-April where I'd hit the top of the hill and be hurting, then after a short 2 minute jog down the hill I was completely fine. I remember writing in my log that it was the weirdest feeling to run so hard but then shortly thereafter feel like I could do it all day.

This is why you run tempos - so you can be strong enough to do a lot of the faster middle distance work.

xcvt wrote:

Is there any need for tempo runs if training for anything 2 miles and under? It seems that LT workouts of 1k-2k-even 3k reps are more useful than straight tempo runs because you can get more volume at a faster pace while still staying under the LT. The Ingebrigtsens and other coaches seem to be using these more and more and less tempo runs. I have done a combination of both but should I lean more toward LT intervals in base and move away from or completely eliminate straight tempo runs? I was going to do a combo of both this winter starting with more tempo and moving toward LT but now I might do at least ~75% LT intervals and 25% tempo.

Google Jakob Ingebrigtsen

Look like you had already googled, maybe read again how Jacob trains? :)

NameStolenAgain wrote:

Look like you had already googled, maybe read again how Jacob trains? :)

Exactly. Jakob trains like this and he is one of the best in the world in 1500-5k so why should everyone else do tempos? I agree that they could be useful for 5k and up and I think that they helped me with my base this summer but as I go into hs track season I think Ingebrigtsen style LT workout would be MORE beneficial. And yes I might still do some quicker long runs and a few tempos.

xcvt wrote:

I think Ingebrigtsen style LT workout would be MORE beneficial.

I agree. Could you post/link a few examples of these workouts? I have only seen a couple.

Uhhh wrote:

Lydiard advocated lots of 1hr runs at 3/4 effort for his 800m / mile runners.

Depending on your definition, those could be considered Tempo runs. But not if you mean "Threshold runs" when you talk about "Tempo runs".

Even so his underlying point was decent-paced runs were necessary to improve aerobic fitness even for middle distances.

The impression I got was that those were more of a marathon paced workout but there is a lot of judgement calls about what things like a. "hilly" course and the like mean. A bunch of other guys like Ron Clarke also used to bust out a bunch of 1 hour runs that were around MP pace.

I am not sure if there is much science to support them over 20-30 min runs at the slightly higher intensity but I can imagine you can build a program around either of them as your core aerobic workout. In general most science tends to favor intensity BUT most of the studies are on short term (8-16 weeks) of training and not the long term.

Fraser Street Express wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

There is no need for sustained tempo runs longer than 15-20 min for any race distance.

The only exception from that rule will be when it comes to the specific long run for best marathon preparation. In my system Cancan that sustained fast part( at LT-pace or close) of the long run will be 10-40 min.

THIS, I disagree with. For anyone racing the 5k+ seriously, sustained effort and managing discomfort are an integral part of performance and this needs to be trained. You can be have your aerobic capacity, lactate threshold (etc) physiologically tuned from intervals training, but runners need long training efforts to prepare for the expression of that fitness in events of 15/30/60 minutes plus. And of course this is actually quite specific training for the 10k/HM.

Yes , but my Cancan system is like magic and all my imaginary athletes improve hehe ))

- Magic wizard!! - :)

Do you plan on doing double threshold days?

Daniel`s tempos 20 min are in fact very close to HM pace! Differs only a few sec/ km faster,or slower!. Right would be right! :) And 10 k pace is much faster !(7-8 sec faster / km for the elite and this match even slower runners) . Just correct you when I read false statements.

yep, i agree.

looking back on years of running all kinds of distances, i think that tempos are very important also for 800m. 800m athletes who run a hard 4-miler regularly will have less problems with hard intervals. the stamina is there.

and distance runners who can handle tempos of 5k race pace plus 10 sec/km for 5-6km or a 5-6 miler at 5k race pace plus 20sec/km or a classy 10 miler at 5k race pace plus 30sec/km will have zero problems to reach their goals.

And you have coached 13 winners (ore more?) of international races and a marathon win in 2:07 ?

Article about the ingerbrighten's and studies that have found a stronger correlation with tempos and performance vs longer intervals.

Excerpt from article

Arturo Casado results indicated otherwise.

In fact, total volume of training had the highest correlation with top performance at .75. This was followed by easy runs (with a correlation of .68), tempo runs (.58), and short intervals (.56). Long intervals had a very low correlation with performance (.22). And time trials and races had essentially no correlation, perhaps because top runners aim to win their big races rather than shooting for fast times.

The Wizard JS wrote:

Fraser Street Express wrote:

THIS, I disagree with. For anyone racing the 5k+ seriously, sustained effort and managing discomfort are an integral part of performance and this needs to be trained. You can be have your aerobic capacity, lactate threshold (etc) physiologically tuned from intervals training, but runners need long training efforts to prepare for the expression of that fitness in events of 15/30/60 minutes plus. And of course this is actually quite specific training for the 10k/HM.

And you have coached 13 winners (ore more?) of international races and a marathon win in 2:07 ?

Maybe I coached your mom for 2:07.

Discuss the topic, not your resume.

Looking real world, remember how Coe came along after Lydiard and said he was low-mileage and put all the focus on Threshold runs and speedwork.

Everybody was impressed by his world records and Threshold training became the thing through the 80s/90s.

The effects of that fed through wiith only about 100 US men breaking four mins in the mile between 1990-2005.

Since people went back to higher mileage there's been almost 300 from 2006-2020

Maybe there's other reasons like better tracks, shoes, more competitions but there's a view that Coe got it wrong with the focus on Threshold

Fraser Street Express wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

And you have coached 13 winners (ore more?) of international races and a marathon win in 2:07 ?

Maybe I coached your mom for 2:07.

Discuss the topic, not your resume.

Well.......I think it tells everything about the topic. lol

The Wizard JS wrote:

Fraser Street Express wrote:

Maybe I coached your mom for 2:07.

Discuss the topic, not your resume.

Well.......I think it tells everything about the topic. lol

Jan Stensson, the lying coach!