Is it Normal to Train this Fast? (Tinman Workout)

Why not instead start at 10k pace?

aztec the moron wrote:

congrats you might be the dumbest poster on this site.

Sir, that is an impossibly high bar. You can’t expect any one man to reach it.

zipper wrote:

Here are a couple examples of standard elite runner workouts. They are moderately difficult.

First a short one:

https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/10/8/5x800m

5 x 800 at 1500 pace, 2-3 minutes rest between, seems incredibly difficult to me, like 10/10.

aztec the moron wrote:

This is one of the dumbest workouts of all time. You should not use this workout in any way when deciding how to structure your own training or that of anyone else.

They ran five 1200s, each at an ENTIRELY different pace. They will get virtually no benefit from this workout because they didn't spend nearly enough time in any zone.

This is a example of Tinman's ineptitude as a coach.

Did it ever occur to you that this workout would be done to prepare the body for a tactical distance race? The first 4 reps are the set-up, putting fatigue on the athletes. Then they have to close hard the last rep. 4:07 pace at altitude is getting very close to the low-4 or sub-4 final mile that happens in many national and international-class races feature.

Zones can be helpful for training but they aren't gospel to be followed for every single workout.

Hardloper wrote:

You're overthinking it. It's a cutdown workout, the early 1200s around tempo effort aren't the primary stimulus. It's not like the workout is targeting "marathon pace" (in your words).

Right. You could just as easily consider the first 1200 to be part of the warmup.

Now you are just making stuff up. Most of the guys in the video didn't even race this year. And the ones that did race were definitely NOT in tactical races.

The fact that all of you are trying so hard to justify this workout in so many different ways PROVES it's a crap workout. It does not have a clear purpose, or a specific purpose. Tinman is just throwing crap at a wall and seeing what sticks.

That other High Performance West workout (2 x 1 hour at half marathon pace) is obviously impossible unless your half marathon time is in the 2 hour range. If your half marathon time is 58:xx how could you even do 1 rep?

aztec the moron wrote:

literally every single exercise physiologist says mixed pace workouts are bad.

It's also just common sense. Go run 6 miles every day, do 12x100m sprints all out every day, and lift for 90 minutes a day, then report back when you get decent at even just one of those areas.

So it will be real easy for you to post one study to back it up. i will be waiting.

And common sense would be that you would need to give an alternative. Who runs a faster mile:

a) 6 miles/day, 12x100 sprints and lifting 90 mins

or

b) -the person who runs 18 miles one day

- sprints 36x100 the second

aztec the moron wrote:

literally every single exercise physiologist says mixed pace workouts are bad.

It's also just common sense. Go run 6 miles every day, do 12x100m sprints all out every day, and lift for 90 minutes a day, then report back when you get decent at even just one of those areas.

So give one study that back them up. Since they all agree it should be trivial to post.

As far as common sense if you

a) Run 18 miles one day

b) sprint 36x100 the second

c) lift on the 3rd for 270 mins

report back when you are decent at even one of those areas. Is the stupidity in doing them all in the same day or is in the workouts?

aztec the moron wrote:

literally every single exercise physiologist says mixed pace workouts are bad.

Still waiting for you to site one person who says this and why they know more than every other coach who prescribes mixed pace workouts

Gotta actually back up what you say to be taken seriously cause right now you just look like a fool

Are the Michigan and Lumberjack workouts bad because they change pace on the athlete and go outside to different zones? No. People aren't going to great lengths to defend tinman here, I could care less about him. People are just calling you out on your lies and you have nothing to respond with because you realized you are wrong

Usually my really tough sessions tend to be reps that are 1km or under. I don't think it's purely physical but I can't imagine how I'd cope mentally if I were doing reps of 10 minutes at such a high effort level.

guy who can run wrote:

aztec the moron wrote:

literally every single exercise physiologist says mixed pace workouts are bad.

Still waiting for you to site one person who says this and why they know more than every other coach who prescribes mixed pace workouts

Gotta actually back up what you say to be taken seriously cause right now you just look like a fool

I don't know why you clowns are melting down over the "alleged controversial" statement. The adaptations your body makes from a workout are directly related to the magnitude and the specificity of the stimulus. That's exercise phys 101. Hell, that's biology 101.

In this workout, the athletes use a different fuel source every couple reps. First 2 reps are purely using fat for energy. then for the next 2 it's aerobic at the lactate threshold. then at the end it's purely anaerobic using the glycolytic energy system.

Not a big stimulus for any of the 3 energy systems being used, and since there are so many different stimuli the body's response to each will be smaller. In conclusion - a foolish workout.

I see you don`t know so much about running physiology. First comes use of glycogen and then fat.

These paces don't happen in a vacuum and every pace has some combination of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism for example 3k pace is like 80% aerobic and 20% anaerobic.

Mentally this will also prep someone to increase the effort as the workout goes on which is what you need to do in a race to maintain a given pace.

Mikeh33 wrote:

I was watching his Tinman workout:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRiUz4Dgsk

The runners performed a set of 5 x 1200s. I do not know the rest interval. By my calculation, they ran the first at approximately 5:00 pace for a 1600. The second was about 4:48 pace, the third 4:36, the fourth 4:22 or so, and the last...4:07.

My question is not whether it is normal to train that fast, because clearly there are only a few people who can run that fast at all, even for one rep. My question is, is it normal to train at that close to maximum speed, for that long? I thought that most runners stayed away from efforts like this, at least as long as 1200 meters.

Thanks in advance for the discussion!

Can't stand Tinman. Further evidence of him being a subpar coach.

Correct. Glad to see someone here has a grasp of biochemistry.

The Dirty Duck wrote:

Only the last 1200 @ 3k place is really hard. The first four are tempo, threshold, a bit slower than CV, and a bit faster than CV.

Or roughly . . . slower than marathon pace, 30k pace, 20k, 8-10k, 3k.

Yep, this. I think you see Tinman do a lot more workouts where it's 5 x 1200 @ 8k/10k & then some shorter/faster 200s/:30 reps. This workout is interesting since it's a huge cut touching on a variety of paces. At the end of the day, one 1200 on somewhat tired legs isn't too absurd (don't get me wrong, it's still an impressive workout. but a manageable one).

Also none of us should ever do 3 x 1km @ 1500 pace. Idc what the rest is on that one. Just go out & race at that point.

He thinks running at MP and HM is mainly fat burning. It isn't worth talking physiology with him.

The question about this workout has always been are you doing enough work. A lot of runners would do things like 5x1200 at 5k pace as a core workout (or 3x1 mile or 6x1000) but you shouldn't look at a workout in isolation. If you have been mainly doing tempo work, you might do a lot volume of fast stuff to ease into it. Or if you are getting ready for a race you want to do a little work to stay in touch with the paces but not enough to exhaust you. And 1200 at 3k pace is a good simulation of how a lot of championship races crank it up over the last mile...