Is it Normal to Train this Fast? (Tinman Workout)

Generally no. BUT they should be used close to peak race.
For example for 1500, 3x1000 @1500 pace with 6-8 minutes rest. Brutally hard workout that you wouldn’t be able to handle unless you’re in the best shape of your life.
Or for 5k
[email protected] pace, 2k @6k pace,[email protected] pace
If you were to do this in the first couple weeks transitioning from basic training you would fail.
Without extensive aerobic work your engine is not big enough to support it.

Very interesting - so probably this can every close to a big race, after a season of long runs and aerobic work.

Only the last 1200 @ 3k place is really hard. The first four are tempo, threshold, a bit slower than CV, and a bit faster than CV.

Or roughly . . . slower than marathon pace, 30k pace, 20k, 8-10k, 3k.

Amazing that those sorts of splits, only one is really hard. I guess that’s what makes them so good.

I've never tried it, but at first blush it looks like an easyish 4x1200 CV workout topped off with a very hard last 1200.

What zipper said. But Mikeh33, check this out:

https://runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

One of the runners in the video was Sidney Gidabuday.

Well, I plugged in 13:30 (roughly Gidabuday's 5000m best) into Tinman's calculator above. The 1200s would be close to tempo, then threshold, then CV, then aerobic power, then VO2 max for Gidabuday on that calculator. I'm guessing that they are jogging a lap between.

Take your 5000 time, plug it in and try that workout. Maybe the last 2 would be pretty tough depending on what kind of runner you are.

Tinman once published a formula for how much CV work you could do in a single workout. It's 420 divided by your 5000 time in minutes. So, again for Gidabuday, 420 divided by 13.5 is 31:07, so if CV pace for 1200 is 3:22 to 3:27, he could do about 9 of them if they were all at CV pace.

Now, if you are a 21 minute 5000 runner, the formula says only do 20 minutes of CV work. So if your CV pace is 5:09 to 5:15 per 1200, you wouldn't want to do more than 4 1200s cause even 4 of them would put you just over 20 minutes.

Again, for the 21 minute runner, your CV 800s last about as long as Gidabuday's CV 1200s, so you could do 5 or 6 800s to get to that 20 minute guideline. Or if you want to do them as cutdowns (first one slower than CV pace, last one faster than CV pace) like in the video, that's OK too. But like zipper said, use the workouts appropriately depending on where you are in your season.

^^^
Better explanation.

This is one of the dumbest workouts of all time. You should not use this workout in any way when deciding how to structure your own training or that of anyone else.

They ran five 1200s, each at an ENTIRELY different pace. They will get virtually no benefit from this workout because they didn't spend nearly enough time in any zone.

This is a example of Tinman's ineptitude as a coach.

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Mikeh33 wrote:
I was watching his Tinmanworkout:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XkRiUz4Dgsk

The runners performed a set of 5 x 1200s. I do not know the rest interval. By my calculation, they ran the first at approximately 5:00 pace for a 1600. The second was about 4:48 pace, the third 4:36, the fourth 4:22 or so, and the last...4:07.

My question is not whether it is normal to train that fast, because clearly there are only a few people who can run that fast at all, even for one rep. My question is, is it normal to train at that close to maximum speed, for that long? I thought that most runners stayed away from efforts like this, at least as long as 1200 meters.

Thanks in advance for the discussion!

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aztec the moron wrote:
This is one of the dumbest workouts of all time. You should not use this workout in any way when deciding how to structure your own training or that of anyone else.

They ran five 1200s, each at an ENTIRELY different pace. They will get virtually no benefit from this workout because they didn't spend nearly enough time in any zone.

This is a example of Tinman's ineptitude as a coach.

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Check out this youtube channel if you wanna see the workouts the pitt guys are doing https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCagbXTefW5bIWgCPswf_jUQ/featured?view_as=subscriber

Eh, zone training is not a good way to look at workouts. If Zone X is 150-165 bpm and you are at 149 bpm are you getting no benefit?
The other issue is that heart rate and speed vary depending on so many variables that you’re never exactly constant.
Aerobic power can be worked upon at pretty much any pace faster than marathon pace. Sure running at 800 mile pace is much more anaerobic, but at some point you are maxing our aerobic contribution.
Generally speaking, only highly trained athletes are the ones that “need” to be doing single paced sessions. Everyone should be doing them, but only at that crazy high level are you going to get guys that need extreme volumes at a specific pace to elicit a response.
Even at the elite level mixed pace workouts are important because they give you a chance to experience surges in a race. There’s also something to be said about throwing in a fast rep every now in then in a workout to have your body practice running at a specific pace with higher lactate levels than you would normally have

No it is not normal to run that EASY. They need to be running real workouts.

5 x 1200 at 3k pace might be good.

Here are a couple examples of standard elite runner workouts. They are moderately difficult.

First a short one:
https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/10/8/5x800m

Next a slightly longer one (key workout for any serious marathon or half marathoner):
https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/9/29/2x1hour

That is a most excellent link and table. Thank you very much! Fascinating stuff. Funny, I put in 5k time and it guessed my mile almost to the second. Awesome

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Mikeh33 wrote:
My question is not whether it is normal to train that fast,

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former elite runner wrote:
No it is not normal to run that EASY. They need to be running real workouts.

5 x 1200 at 3k pace might be good.

Here are a couple examples of standard elite runner workouts. They are moderately difficult.

First a short one:
https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/10/8/5x800m

Next a slightly longer one (key workout for any serious marathon or half marathoner):
https://www.highperformancewest.com/workout-of-the-day/2020/9/29/2x1hour

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zipper wrote:
Eh, zone training is not a good way to look at workouts. If Zone X is 150-165 bpm and you are at 149 bpm are you getting no benefit?
The other issue is that heart rate and speed vary depending on so many variables that you’re never exactly constant.
Aerobic power can be worked upon at pretty much any pace faster than marathon pace. Sure running at 800 mile pace is much more anaerobic, but at some point you are maxing our aerobic contribution.
Generally speaking, only highly trained athletes are the ones that “need” to be doing single paced sessions. Everyone should be doing them, but only at that crazy high level are you going to get guys that need extreme volumes at a specific pace to elicit a response.
Even at the elite level mixed pace workouts are important because they give you a chance to experience surges in a race. There’s also something to be said about throwing in a fast rep every now in then in a workout to have your body practice running at a specific pace with higher lactate levels than you would normally have

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So progression runs are worthless according to you. You're a fool.

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Mikeh33 wrote:
That is a most excellent link and table. Thank you very much! Fascinating stuff. Funny, I put in 5k time and it guessed my mile almost to the second. Awesome

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