Best Interval Session for 5/10k Progress

Interestingly Tinman has designed an interval session aimed at improving VO2max for a 20 min 5K runner:

7:09 into this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjfEUMX0DhQ&t=45s

15x400m

12x500m

3000m + 4x500m

8x800m

Semiler wrote:

1. Amateur runners typically have a heart rate of up to 80% of max heart rate at LT.

2. 85%-90% of max heart rate means accumulating lactate acid for every step.

3. Accumulating lactate acid for every step means unsustainable effort.

4. 5 minutes of accumulating acid means suffering.

5. Repeating 5 minutes of suffering 5 times means a tough training sessions.

which statement(s) do you find false?

1) Where did you get that from? There is absolutely no difference anatomically between a pro runner and an amateur. Even an amateur has about 85-90 % of MHR at LT. The only difference

is.....pace ! We can take an example with me as an amateur runner at my prime and 14:20 best at 5000m and compare with the Olympic 5000 m silver medalist in Moscow 1980 , Suleiman Nyambui , a pro and 13: 12 at 5000m . The only difference between us two was that he just ran his workouts faster in training . 6-8 x 800m at 2:06-2:08 for him and about 2:16 for me.It`s as I always "preach" just a pace thing.....

2) 3) and 4) ........You are still left in the old school of how to look up on lactate and it`s role in the energy process.

5) Any suffering training is wrong training! Train, don`t strain! :)

And Tinman is just wrong in this statement that a 20 min 5 k runner should do 400s at 1:30.67 when running maxVO2....that`s the same as about 3:46 min / km instead of the enough pace of 4:00 min / km to improve maxVO2-pace ( 5 k pace). To run this faster pace to no avail also increses the risk of injury.

The Wizard JS wrote:

And Tinman is just wrong in this statement that a 20 min 5 k runner should do 400s at 1:30.67 when running maxVO2....that`s the same as about 3:46 min / km instead of the enough pace of 4:00 min / km to improve maxVO2-pace ( 5 k pace). To run this faster pace to no avail also increses the risk of injury.

This is where i think we see the division into 2 camps, where one says less reps with more intensity is better. And the other says more reps with less intensity is better. Everybody agrees with more reps for distances such as marathon. But many look at the 5k quite differently and even more so for the 1500.

and then of course there is the difference of coaches who look very deeply into the science of physiologically being at V02 max vs the coaches who do not believe that to be quite so important, rather they look to more time being spent at a particular pace as being the most beneficial.

The Wizard JS wrote:

I will teach something ... :) The goal with the workout isn`t to remove lactate ! The main goal is to USE the lactate in the energy process to recycle the by-product into new energy. When running at 5 k race pace this energy process will become more efficient over time if repeated frequently.

This is largely wrong. What JS is probably referring to is 'lactate buffering'. This is the Cori cycle, and is to do with anaerobic glycolysis. This system can be trained, but is of limited (though not negligible) value in the 5km. It is typically trained through highly anaerobic sessions with reps at faster than 5km pace, e.g. few but quite long reps at 1500/mile pace. Only a little of this training is needed for the 5km; too much and it may negatively impact performance, as it is the aerobic system that needs to bear as much work as possible. All sessions where one accumulates lactate through running hard (e.g. a hard 5km paced session) do train lactate buffering to some extent, but, again, the importance of this is small for a 5km.

What 5km pace and threshold pace sessions are training, in different ways, is to use the aerobic system at faster and faster paces. Lactate is not involved at all in aerobic glycolysis. 3km/5km pace training is working on aerobic capacity (being able to get more oxygen to the muscles at a given pace, so that a greater degree of aerobic glycolysis can take place at that pace). Threshold pace training is working on aerobic efficiency (making greater use of aerobic glycolysis rather than anaerobic glycolysis at faster paces); the threshold refers to the fact that there is a point (not precisely defined really) at which anaerobic glycolysis starts to be used to a much greater extent, and one can push up the threshold by training near it.

Both aerobic capacity and aerobic threshold are limited by base aerobic fitness, i.e. factors like stroke volume of the heart, amount of mitochondria, enzyme behaviour, etc.

I can maybe add that threshold training is somewhat special, because it is almost entirely aerobic, and if one can do a high volume of it, one will improve base aerobic fitness as well. There is a 'golden range' from around (slightly above) the anaerobic threshold to around (slightly below) the aerobic threshold which are the paces at which one gains real (aerobic) strength/stamina; where one really acquires endurance. The only reason to drop below this golden range is to get a greater volume than one possibly could otherwise. The Ingebrigtsens have only a small part of their training below it. Cross-training is often just as good if not better below the golden range, because one can do higher quality work for longer.

Did not make any claim about pro runners. Only about "the amateur typically". That is because there are exceptions, and some of those exceptions are elite pros.

Running faster than LT means accumulating Lactate Acid. For what reason do you think it is called Lactate Threshold?

[/quote]

Myth. For VO2max the best training sessions means tough training. It is scientificly proved that improvement from the heart's pumping capacity through training is related to how long time the heart is exposed to pumping blood at a minimum of velocity.

No pain no gain is also a myth. There are excellent training sessions for for example capillary dencity that require no pain at all. It is just about jogging slowly for many kilometers.

Semiler wrote:

Running faster than LT means accumulating Lactate Acid. For what reason do you think it is called Lactate Threshold?

What JS meant was that whilst anaerobic glycolysis is used to a significantly greater degree above the lactate threshold, and the muscles become more acidic (leading to fatigue), it is not lactate which is actually the cause of the acidity; the acidity is due to H+ ions which are a byproduct of glycolysis. The role of lactate is to reduce acidity ('lactate buffering'). As I discussed above, where JS is wrong is that this lactate buffering is of relatively small importance in the 5km, and is not the main goal of 3/5km paced training or threshold training.

For 5k/10k training try to do 2 workouts a week. One workout is threshold and one is fartlek or intervals. Threshold could just be a tempo run if you like simplicity, make do 5-6k in base then 6-8k in speed phase, then the next season increase base tempos to 6-8k and speed phase to 8-10k. Then for Tuesday, I prefer light fartleks in base phase, but you could do 4-5k of 5k pace intervals in base, then 6-8k of intervals in speed phase.

As for the specific intervals, 400s are always a classic. 1ks are also really good. 10 x 1k at 10k pace with 200m jog is a classic 10k workout, but take 400m jog if you're doing them at 5k pace You could also do ladders like 1-2 sets of 1600-1200-800-400 with 400m jogs. You could also do sets of 800-400 with 400m jogs.

For 5k pace workouts, make sure your recovery time is equal to interval time, or pretty darn close. If your interval takes 3 minutes your recovery should be about 3 minutes, so a 1:1 work:rest ratio. For 10k pace workouts I think the ratio is 3:2 or 2:1 (not sure). If you opt for cruise intervals over tempo runs, the work:rest ratio should be 3:1 or 4:1.

If you want to run well at both, the threshold and weekly mileage is key to make you strong , while the intervals or fartleks are key to making you fast. If you're more slow twitch, the intervals or fartleks should be more 10k paced, but if you're more fast twitch they should be more 5k paced. In other words, if you're slow twitch, the 10k is more the primary event and 5k secondary. If you're more fast twitch, it's the opposite.

How were you doing your Yasso 800s?

The Wizard JS wrote:

And Tinman is just wrong in this statement that a 20 min 5 k runner should do 400s at 1:30.67 when running maxVO2....that`s the same as about 3:46 min / km instead of the enough pace of 4:00 min / km to improve maxVO2-pace ( 5 k pace). To run this faster pace to no avail also increses the risk of injury.

5k pace isn't Vo2Max pace for a 20 min runner. For a 20 min 5k runner vo2max pace is going to be something like 2000-2800m or so pace (i.e. something that takes 8-12 mins). 90s 400 is in the ballpark of right.

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

The Wizard JS wrote:

And Tinman is just wrong in this statement that a 20 min 5 k runner should do 400s at 1:30.67 when running maxVO2....that`s the same as about 3:46 min / km instead of the enough pace of 4:00 min / km to improve maxVO2-pace ( 5 k pace). To run this faster pace to no avail also increses the risk of injury.

5k pace isn't Vo2Max pace for a 20 min runner. For a 20 min 5k runner vo2max pace is going to be something like 2000-2800m or so pace (i.e. something that takes 8-12 mins). 90s 400 is in the ballpark of right.

you are not wrong, but i think JS does vo2 max training similar to Daniels, which is based around 95% of vo2 max.

sbliv wrote:

6x1km @ 5k with equal rest

20 min tempo

10-15x400m @ 3k pace 1' rest

4-5 x mile @ 10k 1-2' rest

Agreed.

Semiler wrote:

1. Amateur runners typically have a heart rate of up to 80% of max heart rate at LT.

2. 85%-90% of max heart rate means accumulating lactate acid for every step.

3. Accumulating lactate acid for every step means unsustainable effort.

4. 5 minutes of accumulating acid means suffering.

5. Repeating 5 minutes of suffering 5 times means a tough training sessions.

which statement(s) do you find false?

Statement 1.

high school xc coach wrote:

dadsfadsfdasfdsafdas wrote:

5k pace isn't Vo2Max pace for a 20 min runner. For a 20 min 5k runner vo2max pace is going to be something like 2000-2800m or so pace (i.e. something that takes 8-12 mins). 90s 400 is in the ballpark of right.

you are not wrong, but i think JS does vo2 max training similar to Daniels, which is based around 95% of vo2 max.

Exactly! Daniels found out that there is just negligible difference in what is achieved in the different speeds, and therefore it`s much smarter to stay at 5 k race pace and also reduce the risk of injury. A well-known physiologist who gave support to the fact that this is how it should be seen is the Norwegian L-I Tjelta. Ingebrigtsens personal Ph.

The Wizard JS wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

you are not wrong, but i think JS does vo2 max training similar to Daniels, which is based around 95% of vo2 max.

Exactly! Daniels found out that there is just negligible difference in what is achieved in the different speeds, and therefore it`s much smarter to stay at 5 k race pace and also reduce the risk of injury. A well-known physiologist who gave support to the fact that this is how it should be seen is the Norwegian L-I Tjelta. Ingebrigtsens personal Ph.

Great so now you are saying tinman is 100% right and that to do a vo2max workout you should be running at 90s pace. Seems like you are confused about the difference between what a. workout should be and when to pick which type of workout to use.

If you want to argue that vo2max workouts should be uses sparingly, my impression is that tinman will agree. Heck isn't his claim to fame those slow CV intervals?