I will never buy or support France again

Usher wrote:

GASP!!! You mean Jenna and Barbara Bush aren't serving?

Last I heard they were drinking wine....in France.

Old man,

I'll never condemn anyone for fighting to defend the ideals of the USA.

The problem, though, is that there is absolutely no consistency in US foreign policy. Why so selective with our "compassion"? While freeing the Iraqi people from the clutches of Saddam is certainly noble, why weren't they "in our thoughts and prayers" when we armed and helped put Saddam in power in the first place? Why didn't Donald Rumsfeld mention his concern for the Iraqi people when he met with Saddam in 1983? Why is propping up, arming and training brutal thugs (like Saddam) OK when it's in our own best interest?

This war, like numerous military actions before it, and more that are likely to soon follow, is NOT about the ideals that most Americans hold true. It is not naive to think that control of the vast Iraqi oil supply is one of the major underlying reasons. If Iraq had, say, one of the largest reserves of white peppercorn in the world, or, amber waves of strawberry patches, do you really think 250,000 troops would be in the Middle East right now?

You've asked in this thread, what we should do. We could begin by examining why so much of the world opposes US policy (not only this latest one), and by being truly honest with ourselves about our recent history and some of the disastrous and deadly consequences of that history. For that, though, I won't hold me breath.

I imagine that many posters on this board were not born or very young during the 70's and 80's. Many may not remember the tensions of the Cold War.

Many of these so-called "policy mistakes" and "monsters created by the USA" came about as a result of the Cold War. At the time, we unfortunately got in bed with some pretty despicable people (like Saddam and Osama) since they helped us to harrass and keep the Soviets in check. Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, arming Saddam accomplished two things: it placed a strong anti-Communist leader in the region and he balanced the fundamentalism of his neighbor, Iran. A Faustian bargain to be sure.

It seemed like a good idea at the time. The USSR collapsed and the world got safer...for a little bit.

Without the Soviet Union (which also viewed fundamentalists as a threat) on the Middle East's doorstep, Islamic fundamentalism and Arab nationalism took hold in the region and with it sectarian violence and hardline religious fervor. Not exactly the forces of progress and democracy.

Books have been written about this so, read more about it from far more scholarly people than myself. The point I make is this: America created this problem and now must deal with it. It's no one else's issue but, the threat of a Saddam or someone like him declaring war on the West, or Christianity, or Israel, or democracy and then having the means to do great damage is too great a risk to take. While I can certainly understand opposition to war, I am fearful that a lack of decisive action would only delay a catastophic act of terror against the West or Israel for a few months or years. Then, when innocent people are killed, the world will ask (as they did just a few months after 9/11), why didn't we do something to prevent it from happening?

Portland,

That is exactly right. People will say \"why didn\'t we do anything?\" if an attack did happen. But the same people scoff and put down the homeland security and the warning system for being too vague. So you can\'t have it both ways.

Better to secure, in light of what Saddam is: a terrorist and a mass murderer. I don\'t think people realize just how short of a thime it took for the thousands kurds to die from his VX and mustard gas attacks. It was something around 15 minutes till everyone was dead: men, women and children. Everyone dead. I certainly hope you people had a chance to see the TRUCK LOADS of kurd bodies being wheeled away.

I am much more concerned about a terrorist coming over and launching a biological or tactical nuclear attack than a missle from korea. Remember, the Soviets had hundreds of thousands of warhead pointed at every major city and military target in the U.S. THAT was a real missle threat. But still mutually assured destruction prevailed, so peace was gained. So I really doubt Korean would toss one over here just to see what we would do. It would be the end of Korea. China poses a much bigger threat in that missle regard.

The other thing is to think that in 60 years, a country is not capable of creating nuclear weapons is NAIVE. Common people, we did it back in 1945. He could EASILY have nukes.

Remember Saddam had the MASSIVE biological weapons before the inspectors were kicked out. Now they are all mysteriously gone? Oh yeah, I keep forgetting according to the IRAQI UN ambassador \"Iraq used to have the weapons but now they destroyed them all on their own\"

OKAY. Whatever.

Wake up people! U.S. troops have already found over 300 IRAQI chemical suits and VX nerve gas antidote kits hidden in hospitals. What do you think those chemical suits and antidotes are there? They are just wearing them for decoration? Common! You don\'t put on a condom unless you\'re gonna FUCK!

WAKE UP. He\'s got the chemical agents: Anthrax,VX, Mustard gas ready to use. He WILL use them on our troops so don\'t act surprised when he does.

Above All: Support Our Troops and the USA!

I meant to say that he will TRY and use them on our troops. Lets hope we can stop him before he can.

Agreed Portland agreed

Holy Ghost wrote:

Wake up people! U.S. troops have already found over 300 IRAQI chemical suits and VX nerve gas antidote kits hidden in hospitals. What do you think those chemical suits and antidotes are there? They are just wearing them for decoration? Common! You don't put on a condom unless you're gonna FUCK!

WAKE UP. He's got the chemical agents: Anthrax,VX, Mustard gas ready to use. He WILL use them on our troops so don't act surprised when he does.

Above All: Support Our Troops and the USA!

We know he has them and will use them. WE SOLD THE STUFF TO HIM ! Don't cheer your leaders for declaring war against the very monster they were feeding......ask why....why do we continue to sell weaponry and biological agents to third world tyrants with a history of bad behavior? why?

Who do you think trained the Pilots that flew into the World Trade Center? Why? Why wouldn't we have a better mechanism for screening these individuals, when it didn't take much detective work after the fact to determine they had connections to AlQueda.

16x..Do you think the USA trained those pilots to crash into buildings ???..you make no sense...Read Portlands post..if you still dont get it..just give up..

Typical Debate...you bring sound reason to the table..I do think we should re-examine our foriegn policy of the past..thats very healthy..as far as the oil question..I at this point do not feel its ONLY about the oil...many factors come in to play..I think Portlands thread address many of those points..I would agree that a critique of the past foreign policy is needed...Let me make this last point..From what I have read ..the past alliances we have had are over...Its a new world..our traditional allies could be no more..this situation is complicated..Countries like France and many others will not have the USAs backing anymore...New players and alliances are being formed now before our eyes..it all has to play out..very interesting times..those that backed USA understood the bigger picture..and maybe those who didnt understood as well..it still has to play out..there is another fallout that will happen from this...what countries and how it plays out will be very interesting

I get ir Old Man. We weren't training these Al Queda pilots during the Cold War! These men were trained within the last 5 years, long after the Cold War. They apparantly were not screened very thoroughly - if so, what commercial airline or military force did they claim they training for? Not one country accepted any responsibility for these men.

We simply did not do the detective work to screen them and possibly have some insight into what they were going to use their newly aquired skills for.

My father flew for the U.S. Airforce for a number of years. He remembers other pilots training at our flight schools back in the 1950's. They were fully screened and accounted for as to acquiring these skills. Somewhere we got comfortable and stopped doing it?

The pilots of these planes were trained by private flight training companies..It was legal..they entered our nation as students...what your daddy has to do with this is beyond me...

France has a short memory!

I said "my daddy" use to help train commercial and foreign pilots for service in their own countries.

Yes, the flight training schools are "privatized" now, but they are the same ones used to train our military personnel and commercial flight attendants.

Your trying to be a smart ass, but I'll bet you $20 there's a lot more scrutiny and screening going on now at these schools when Muhammed Sheriffadoiujaghobjho shows up to sign up for flight school. Don't act like you don't get what I'm saying. Somewhere, we all became a lot less "cautious" than we are now. 9/11 is no big surprise when you look at the security holes that developed once the Cold War ended.

So go on pretending you don't comprehend what I'm saying.

16x i believe old man is trying to make the point that the pilots were not directly trained to perform military operations by the united states. as for this debate, its a good one. I think honestly all would agree that it is a shame it had to come to war...as a positive note at least humanitarian efforts will come of this. although i still will not swear any allegiance to this, i find it quite retarted actually.

Good post Boulder..I bet many dont realize what we did for those guys...