There are different kinds of volume. I bet he does more short repeats in a week than most runners, even those of his caliber at 800.
One size does not fit all. Slower twitch runners will thrive on long distance, tempos, and VO2 reps. Fast twitch runners will thrive on lots of short repeats with some Tempo / VO2.
behind the wall of sleep wrote:
The problem comes in the Olympics or else where when there are rounds. Which means building up ones strength to last through the rounds. This was his problem in college. He could run fast times, but by time it came for the final there was nothing left in the tank.
Yeah, he obviously had this problem at WC!
600yd/600m man wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
Correct. Some athletes run their fastest off far more volume and others far less. No one size fits all.
I don't know why people think Coe ran low miles. He states big numbers in his book all over the place. That is where a lot of this fascination with 'low mileage' middle distance came from.
Rudisha didn't need high mileage, he worked on specific endurance to take his speed as far as possible. But I bet his volume+intensity was way too much for most to handle.
Low mileage 800 metre training did not start with Sebastian Coe & Peter Coe. John Woodruff, USA, 800m gold medal, 1936 Olympics, 440 yard dash personal best, 47.0, Malvin Whitfield, USA, 800m gold medal, 1948 & 1952 Olympics, 400 metre dash personal best, 45.9 & Tom Courtney, USA, 800m, gold medal, 1956 Olympics, 400 metre dash personal best, 45.8. All three men raced on cinder/dirt tracks with heavy shoes.
Early to mid-1970s, S. Coe was doing higher mileage training with strict periodization. Lydiard-type training. Sometime in mid-1970s, Peter Coe got S. Coe away from Lydiard-type training. Peter Coe took over S. Coe's training and trained S. Coe with lower mileage, cross-training and not as strict periodization training, some speed work & anaerobic training year around.
S. Coe was a low mileage athlete in late 1979 when he set those world records. S. Coe was a low mileage athlete at 1980 Olympics. Ask S. Coe yourself when S. Coe officially switched from an athlete who trained for 800m but also raced events 1500m and longer to an athlete who trained for 1500m/one mile and also raced 800m. Was it 1983? Was it early 1984? S. Coe & Peter Coe did not invent low mileage 800m training. Peter Coe never claimed to invent low mileage 800m training. Peter Coe believed S. Coe's best event was 800m and Peter Coe knew S. Coe was not going to maximize his 800m potential on higher mileage Lydiard training.
I'm not a distance coach, but it always bothers me when people refer to Lydiard as only high mileage training, it was not. Speed and anaerobic power were as important, if not more for Lydiard than the aerobic development. He certainly didn't develop Peter Snell on only high mileage. Lydiard was really big on developing anaerobic power and speed, once the aerobic base was developed. There have been notable sprint coaches that have used some of Lydiard's training techniques to great effect for sprinters. But don't take my word for it, take a look for yourself:
http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur%20Lydiard.pdfCO Coach wrote:
600yd/600m man wrote:
Low mileage 800 metre training did not start with Sebastian Coe & Peter Coe. John Woodruff, USA, 800m gold medal, 1936 Olympics, 440 yard dash personal best, 47.0, Malvin Whitfield, USA, 800m gold medal, 1948 & 1952 Olympics, 400 metre dash personal best, 45.9 & Tom Courtney, USA, 800m, gold medal, 1956 Olympics, 400 metre dash personal best, 45.8. All three men raced on cinder/dirt tracks with heavy shoes.
Early to mid-1970s, S. Coe was doing higher mileage training with strict periodization. Lydiard-type training. Sometime in mid-1970s, Peter Coe got S. Coe away from Lydiard-type training. Peter Coe took over S. Coe's training and trained S. Coe with lower mileage, cross-training and not as strict periodization training, some speed work & anaerobic training year around.
S. Coe was a low mileage athlete in late 1979 when he set those world records. S. Coe was a low mileage athlete at 1980 Olympics. Ask S. Coe yourself when S. Coe officially switched from an athlete who trained for 800m but also raced events 1500m and longer to an athlete who trained for 1500m/one mile and also raced 800m. Was it 1983? Was it early 1984? S. Coe & Peter Coe did not invent low mileage 800m training. Peter Coe never claimed to invent low mileage 800m training. Peter Coe believed S. Coe's best event was 800m and Peter Coe knew S. Coe was not going to maximize his 800m potential on higher mileage Lydiard training.
I'm not a distance coach, but it always bothers me when people refer to Lydiard as only high mileage training, it was not. Speed and anaerobic power were as important, if not more for Lydiard than the aerobic development. He certainly didn't develop Peter Snell on only high mileage. Lydiard was really big on developing anaerobic power and speed, once the aerobic base was developed. There have been notable sprint coaches that have used some of Lydiard's training techniques to great effect for sprinters. But don't take my word for it, take a look for yourself:
http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/Arthur%20Lydiard.pdf
I responded to a poster who seemed to not know Peter Coe took over S. Coe's training or previous poster did not know why Peter Coe took over S. Coe's training. You did not thoroughly read my post and you also do not know why Peter Coe took over S. Coe's training. You can see what I highlighted in my post. I stated periodization in regard to Lydiard training. If I stated periodization, then obviously I must know Lydiard did not only train his athletes with high mileage. You do not disagree that Lydiard advocated high mileage for athletes for events 800m and longer. Many are familiar with Peter Snell and his training. Many are familiar with Steve Ovett and his training. Steve Ovett essentially did Lydiard-type training. I can you tell you with near certainty, both Ovett & Snell would have been faster 800m runners if they did lower mileage Peter Coe training without as strict periodization with cross-training. Have you read: Better Training for Distance Runners by Peter Coe & David Martin? You stated poster that you are not a distance coach. You stated some sprint coaches use some of Lydiard training techniques. I hope you are not a 400m coach training your athletes on Lydiard training.
It depends on what you think of as "long" and "fast". If you run 400s and 600s at faster than race pace in 800 training, you're doing both. Working hard, and working hard at relaxation.
More like Pete Julian knows the secret and he hold Donovan. Would love to see this kid become the American Rudisha and just dominate his event.
Jan Stensson , Coach JS wrote:
600yd/600m man wrote:
Low mileage 800 metre training did not start with Sebastian Coe & Peter Coe. John Woodruff, USA, 800m gold medal, 1936 Olympics, 440 yard dash personal best, 47.0, Malvin Whitfield, USA, 800m gold medal, 1948 & 1952 Olympics, 400 metre dash personal best, 45.9 & Tom Courtney, USA, 800m, gold medal, 1956 Olympics, 400 metre dash personal best, 45.8. All three men raced on cinder/dirt tracks with heavy shoes.
Early to mid-1970s, S. Coe was doing higher mileage training with strict periodization. Lydiard-type training. Sometime in mid-1970s, Peter Coe got S. Coe away from Lydiard-type training. Peter Coe took over S. Coe's training and trained S. Coe with lower mileage, cross-training and not as strict periodization training, some speed work & anaerobic training year around.
S. Coe was a low mileage athlete in late 1979 when he set those world records. S. Coe was a low mileage athlete at 1980 Olympics. Ask S. Coe yourself when S. Coe officially switched from an athlete who trained for 800m but also raced events 1500m and longer to an athlete who trained for 1500m/one mile and also raced 800m. Was it 1983? Was it early 1984? S. Coe & Peter Coe did not invent low mileage 800m training. Peter Coe never claimed to invent low mileage 800m training. Peter Coe believed S. Coe's best event was 800m and Peter Coe knew S. Coe was not going to maximize his 800m potential on higher mileage Lydiard training.
A very good comment! :) And there was a guy with the name of Rudolf Harbig coached by the famous Woldemar Gerschler back in the -30s .........World records at both 400 and 800 with 46.0 and 1:46.6 . The only male runner in history holding both world records. He also ran a WR at 1000m at 2:21:5 ........a low mileage runner.
Did Alberto Juantoreno have both records? Or at least the 800m and non altitude 400m.
Some of the known "low mileage" training people did in the past was not so low mileage. Seb Coe ran a lot of miles in his early years. He also ran 70 - 90 miles most winters and rarely ran indoors. Sometimes you have to look at the volume of aerobic work over time rather than peak mileage for one part of a season. Coe could run 1500s and 3000s right from the start.
Juantorino ran 100 - 130k per week in the fall and he was only a 400 - 800 runner. Don't forget about talent. Talent trumps training all the time. We tend to always look at the top runners of the time and copy their training - thinking it must be the best because they are the fastest.
Brazier is a talent. Sometimes those guys (depending on their build) can't run as much but can substitute other types of aerobic training (ie more long interval work). In watching Brazier, I'm sure most of the armchair coaches on here could coach him to a sub 1:44 800m. This guy will break the world record soon.
Trackier wrote:
Some of the known "low mileage" training people did in the past was not so low mileage. Seb Coe ran a lot of miles in his early years. He also ran 70 - 90 miles most winters and rarely ran indoors. Sometimes you have to look at the volume of aerobic work over time rather than peak mileage for one part of a season. Coe could run 1500s and 3000s right from the start.
Juantorino ran 100 - 130k per week in the fall and he was only a 400 - 800 runner. Don't forget about talent. Talent trumps training all the time. We tend to always look at the top runners of the time and copy their training - thinking it must be the best because they are the fastest.
Brazier is a talent. Sometimes those guys (depending on their build) can't run as much but can substitute other types of aerobic training (ie more long interval work). In watching Brazier, I'm sure most of the armchair coaches on here could coach him to a sub 1:44 800m. This guy will break the world record soon.
What you stated stretches logic. If you were to state S. Coe logged as many as 90 miles a week, winter before 1985 to 1990 outdoor T&F season, I would state that sounds reasonable. If you are stating S. Coe logged as many as 90 miles a week in winter before 1976 to 1981 outdoor track & field seasons, that makes no sense. Why would Peter Coe in early mid-1970s take S. Coe away from Lydiard training for Peter Coe to do the exact same training?
Juantorina was no where near 100-130km a week. Prob maxed out at 80km per week (50 miles) which would include warm up/ cool downs, strides and even bounding.
Can we start referring to Julians team as the “Group With No Name”? Like Eastwood’s character in the Dollars trilogy.
people r boring wrote:
behind the wall of sleep wrote:
The problem comes in the Olympics or else where when there are rounds. Which means building up ones strength to last through the rounds. This was his problem in college. He could run fast times, but by time it came for the final there was nothing left in the tank.
Yeah, he obviously had this problem at WC!
I like how you left this part of my post off:
" Since joining NOP, they have obviously solved this i.e. look at his gold in the 800 at the last world championships."
Not saying he needs to high mileage. But if you want to make it through the rounds and have enough in the tank to win in the final you need to build up strength. Rather you do it via high mileage in the off season like Peter Snell did or doing hill reps and 5k type workouts like Seb Coe did. How one does it, I don't really thinks it matters. There's more than one way to skin a cat. There's not much known about his training but if you listen or read his interviews since joining NOP, it's obvious they have focused on building up his strength.
The 800 is an odd event. You have 400 sprinters who can step up and milers who can step down and both have equal success. I say do whatever works the best for the individual. It seems to be an event that different approaches can be used successfully. So if he responds to lower mileage and more speed then stick with it.
I do think the lower mileage costs him a few seconds in the 1500 but he’s not a 1500 specialist, so it doesn’t matter. In his late 20s if he wants to try specialize in the 1500 then he will likely need to up the volume. But again don’t fix what ain’t broke now.
behind the wall of sleep wrote:
people r boring wrote:
Yeah, he obviously had this problem at WC!
I like how you left this part of my post off:
" Since joining NOP, they have obviously solved this i.e. look at his gold in the 800 at the last world championships."
Not saying he needs to high mileage. But if you want to make it through the rounds and have enough in the tank to win in the final you need to build up strength. Rather you do it via high mileage in the off season like Peter Snell did or doing hill reps and 5k type workouts like Seb Coe did. How one does it, I don't really thinks it matters. There's more than one way to skin a cat. There's not much known about his training but if you listen or read his interviews since joining NOP, it's obvious they have focused on building up his strength.
Why do people think you need substantial mileage and great aerobic strength in order to run rounds? That's such a myth. You get 24+ hours to recover.
Did Usain Bolt do tempo runs so that he can make it through rounds of the 100/200 and 4x1?
albanese wrote:
behind the wall of sleep wrote:
I like how you left this part of my post off:
" Since joining NOP, they have obviously solved this i.e. look at his gold in the 800 at the last world championships."
Not saying he needs to high mileage. But if you want to make it through the rounds and have enough in the tank to win in the final you need to build up strength. Rather you do it via high mileage in the off season like Peter Snell did or doing hill reps and 5k type workouts like Seb Coe did. How one does it, I don't really thinks it matters. There's more than one way to skin a cat. There's not much known about his training but if you listen or read his interviews since joining NOP, it's obvious they have focused on building up his strength.
Why do people think you need substantial mileage and great aerobic strength in order to run rounds? That's such a myth. You get 24+ hours to recover.
Did Usain Bolt do tempo runs so that he can make it through rounds of the 100/200 and 4x1?
dot you see a difference between 100 and 800 for recovery???
Impala31 wrote:
dot you see a difference between 100 and 800 for recovery???
No. I'm pretty sure you can catch your breathe for your next 800 within 24 hours.