Why are many American pro-runners congratulating Shalane today, but none did so to Hasay last month?

rojo wrote:

Now, do I think there's a higher percentage change that Hasay is doping than Desi? Yes, I do.

In terms of most suspicious to least suspicious, I'dd go. Rupp, Hasay, Jager, Flanagan, Linden.

Well, rojo, once you realize that about half of all championship athletes are drug cheats (Thüringen/Harvard study, published in 2017), and that the percentage increases with increasing success (Seppelt), you too might conclude that virtually all stars are doping, just some more than others.

Mise en Scene wrote:

However, it's pretty classless to scrutinize one and not the other, particularly given that there is no actual evidence of any wrongdoing (as of yet),

But there is evidence. Correct is that the evidence hasn't led to any convictions (as of yet), so you might hope that it never will, and can argue that the evidence is not convincing, but it's still there.

casual obsever wrote:

Mise en Scene wrote:

However, it's pretty classless to scrutinize one and not the other, particularly given that there is no actual evidence of any wrongdoing (as of yet),

But there is evidence. Correct is that the evidence hasn't led to any convictions (as of yet), so you might hope that it never will, and can argue that the evidence is not convincing, but it's still there.

Actually, you're correct - there have been cases made, which in turn have been made public; accordingly, some, like me, as you've noted, don't consider this convincing enough to be a smoking gun.

But if we add circumstantial evidence and guilt by association into our little kangaroo court, can't people like Rojo admit that then even BTC has a similarly high level of suspicion around it? Which to me, isn't to say that BTC members are doping, but more that the presently provided evidence is not strong.

I agree with you, except for the last sentence of course.

I think many on this thread would LOVE to see Flanagan race once more in Boston before retiring. Why not? She is in obviously very good shape, and has stated many times that she wants to win Boston which is near her hometown. Why not give it one final try while still near the top of her game?

Then, hopefully Hasay and Huddle will also choose Boston as their Spring marathons. After the 5K Sat, Huddle did say she was planning on running a spring marathon. I'd love to see those three go head-to-head-to-head. I'm also a fan of Desi, but fear she doesn't have a low 2:20 in her tool kit at this point.

Boston should pull out the big appearance bucks to make this happen!

I think that several pros are more actively congratulating Shalane supports that it’s not just some Rojo Witch hunt on the NOP. Many find it hard to root for them.

Mise en Scene wrote:

Come on, Rojo. Even Paula acknowledged the unnecessary snark from Shalane.

.

Well duh Paula is still on Nike's dime and she has plenty of suspicion surrounding her performances while being a Nike sponsored athlete.

Not being a gullible fool has nothing to do with class. Props to those who speak their mind and have the integrity to do so even when it means risking their sponsorships/ livelihood.

lasting celebration wrote:

I think that several pros are more actively congratulating Shalane supports that it’s not just some Rojo Witch hunt on the NOP. Many find it hard to root for them.

I don't think it's wrong for people to have/express their negative opinions about NOP et al. on the messageboard or social media - I can completely understand the idea of "finding it hard to root for" NOP as: 1) this is a pro sport, which needs to have compelling story lines of who to like/dislike, and 2) they're like the New York Yankees of professional running.

My personal issue with our little community's dislike for NOP is when it bleeds into the editorial side of LetsRun - that it needs to be a footer in all news content just so the BroJos can later scream "I told you so" if a smoking gun is ever finally found. For those initial articles by British press, fair enough, it could have been potentially damning so by all means go after Salazar, NOP, Nike, etc. But since nothing's materialized as of yet, I don't see any real difference, for example, between the practices of NOP or BTC other than that Salazar is perceived as an @sshole and that BTC collectively has better social and social media presences. And when that becomes so evident in the writing under the guise of strictly being journalism, I think that's very clearly an example of a witch hunt.

I never said Kara didn't cheat. I never said Hasay did cheat. I praise the people iike Magness and Kara for coming clean and telling people what they thought of their group. That takes guts and people like you rip them for it. Think about it. It's fear of getting slammed for "not having proof" that kept people from talking out years ago about Harvery Weinstein, Spacey, etc.

I've said that the fact that Dr. Brown was first discovered by Wetmore and Magness is fascinating. So what? What does seeing Dr. Brown have to do with anything?

Yes, the BTC used them at first. So what. The NOP and BTC were basically one group at the beginning. A young guy like Jerry S has Salazar recommend him to a doctor and they go see him. Nothing wrong with that. Dr. Brown starts pushing things beyond where they are comfortable and they stop seeing him. Or even if they continue to see him I've yet to see an allegation that Dr. Brown ever injected a single BTC athlete with L-Carnitine.

When did I say Hasay was dirty? I think the likelihood that Hasay is dirty is higher simply because she's in the NOP. Flanagan could be dirty as well.

Both always were big, massive talents. Hasay reminds me of Radcliffe. She was in the wrong event for much of her career.

All three of them could be clean, two could be clean, one could be clean, or zero.

It blows my mind that so many people get SO upset when I mention the fact that it's possible that people could be dirty. It's like telling a religious person there's a possibility there is no god. Get over it.

Mise en Scene wrote:

I don't see any real difference, for example, between the practices of NOP or BTC other than that Salazar is perceived as an @sshole and that BTC collectively has better social and social media presences.

Really?

* Salazar's past (i.e. Slaney)

* Ritz's IV dosage exceeding allowable limits

* Testosterone testing to see how much to trigger positive test

* Prescription shopping/fraud

* Suspicion/allegations from former athletes/trainers/coaches

Those don't exist at both Nike teams.

Mise en Scene wrote:

It's possible for American distance fans to equally celebrate both performances. However, it's pretty classless to scrutinize one and not the other, particularly given that there is no actual evidence of any wrongdoing (as of yet), and both groups have access to and have utilized that access to all the same resources and associations.

I don't even mind LetsRun Editorial's messageboard stances on the suspicions. But it's that you let it carry out onto your Front Page with a very clear bias that rubs most of your critics the wrong way. It's not necessarily that we're supporting Salazar, NOP, etc.; it's just the double standards by you guys are so visible on this issue.

What are you talking about? They don't have the same associations.

1) BTC has no ties to Mary Slaney - a MASSIVE talent who was busted for doping (so yes massive talents can get popped for doping).

2) No photographic evidence exists that a BTC athlete was getting a testosterone boost in HS.

3) Jerry Schumacher has never admitted to travelling with a vial of testosterone or conducting a test on his son to see how much he needs to rub on him to score a positive test.

4) There is no proof or allegation that Jerry Shumacher has ever handed out his own prescription drugs to athletes - let alone send them to them in a hollowed out book across international borders.

5) AND LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM A FRONT PAGE PERSPECTIVE, there has never been published reports in major outlets like the BBC/Pro Publica about the BTC. There also has never been a leak of an ongoing USADA investigation about the BTC saying they likely violated doping rules during an L-Carnitine injection.

. WE didn't create that.

So when 1-5 all apply to the BTC, we'll start treating the BTC and NOP equally on the drug suspicion front.

Second loser is third wrote:

Because winning is everything.

Bingo. She beat arguably one of the greatest female runners in history and squashed a stellar field in a convincing fashion. She did exactly what everyone, including myself, expected Keitany to do. I just assumed Shalane would end up 3rd. Maybe 2nd if some sort of miracle took place. Times don't matter when you beat that kind of field. Winning is indeed everything. She had the kind of day we LRC posters/armchair quarterbacks dream of. Would I rather run a solo 27:00 10k against a weak field, or outkick K. Bekele for a win in 28:30? I'd rather beat KB every time. At the end of the day she won NYC, and we are just on here posting about it.

How often do we see Jordan congratulating the third or second place finishers of marathon majors when they’re American?

If not often or never, I’m not sure how much credit she deserves for congratulating Shalane.

Scorpion_runner wrote:

DRUGS. that's why

NOP is dirty. WE all know that. They just haven't been caught. It's that simple.

I didn't know that! Guess I'm not part of 'we'..

rojo wrote:

[quote]Mise en Scene wrote:

5) AND LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM A FRONT PAGE PERSPECTIVE, there has never been published reports in major outlets like the BBC/Pro Publica about the BTC. There also has never been a leak of an ongoing USADA investigation about the BTC saying they likely violated doping rules during an L-Carnitine injection.

. WE didn't create that.

So when 1-5 all apply to the BTC, we'll start treating the BTC and NOP equally on the drug suspicion front.

God here we go again - "L-Carnitine!" I repeat, "L-Carnitine!" What a freaking joke - wake me up when there's actual cheating going on.

And not to take sides here, but whatever Jager was popping to trigger as "likely doping" was surely far beyond a L-Carnitine drip. Oh ya, according to him, he was just "training at altitude." Hmmmmm..............

HahaRiiiiiiight wrote:

rojo wrote:

[quote]Mise en Scene wrote:

5) AND LASTLY AND MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM A FRONT PAGE PERSPECTIVE, there has never been published reports in major outlets like the BBC/Pro Publica about the BTC. There also has never been a leak of an ongoing USADA investigation about the BTC saying they likely violated doping rules during an L-Carnitine injection.

. WE didn't create that.

So when 1-5 all apply to the BTC, we'll start treating the BTC and NOP equally on the drug suspicion front.

God here we go again - "L-Carnitine!" I repeat, "L-Carnitine!" What a freaking joke - wake me up when there's actual cheating going on.

And not to take sides here, but whatever Jager was popping to trigger as "likely doping" was surely far beyond a L-Carnitine drip. Oh ya, according to him, he was just "training at altitude." Hmmmmm..............

I agree, it's a double standard. Everyone seems to forget Even Jagar and "Likely Doping" .

Let me try to make this simple.

In a family, when all family members hate one sibling it is usually because the sibling did something to create these feelings. The family knows things that outsiders are not privy to. And it is never just one bad thing that creates these feelings. It is a pattern of several things.

The professional running community is a family. If you don't understand it is because you are not part of the family. If you had this discussion with 30 members of the family, you would be shocked by how many are in agreement.

I believe that this thread is an example of people that ARE and ARE NOT family members. Weldon and Robert are both part of the family.

Walls of the Elite Suite wrote:

Let me try to make this simple.

In a family, when all family members hate one sibling it is usually because the sibling did something to create these feelings. The family knows things that outsiders are not privy to. And it is never just one bad thing that creates these feelings. It is a pattern of several things.

The professional running community is a family. If you don't understand it is because you are not part of the family. If you had this discussion with 30 members of the family, you would be shocked by how many are in agreement.

I believe that this thread is an example of people that ARE and ARE NOT family members. Weldon and Robert are both part of the family.

ROJO - thank you for that valuable insight.

Sledge_hammer wrote:

dkavoienwo wrote:

why are people calling him racist for hating on Rupp?

White is a race.

White is a race but Rupp is not.