Protectionism, maybe? wrote:
I'm not an engineer and I don't think every engineer is brilliant. But they're still way smarter than nurses, on average, and most don't work 36 hours/week either. What gives?
One flaw in your argument is that raw academic smarts should be the determining factor, and that if it isn't, there must be protectionism at play. This relative salaries are a function of supply and demand. I don't see any regulatory factors that even justify a protectionism argument.
Seattle Gray Hair wrote:
Protectionism, maybe? wrote:
I'm not an engineer and I don't think every engineer is brilliant. But they're still way smarter than nurses, on average, and most don't work 36 hours/week either. What gives?
One flaw in your argument is that raw academic smarts should be the determining factor, and that if it isn't, there must be protectionism at play. This relative salaries are a function of supply and demand. I don't see any regulatory factors that even justify a protectionism argument.
O.P.'s question has some merit. American Medical Association is an S.R.O. with some lobbying power. Health Insurance Companies most definitely have significant lobbying power. Many nurses are in unions, lobbying power. The factors I stated act differently on nurses pay in Europe. It is not pure Supply & Demand. Without Medicare & Medicaid, salaries for most in health care industry would fall significantly.
Precious Roy wrote:
What most people think is a nurse is really a nurse's assistant. That is a job that does not pay well at all (25-30k). The next step up (LSN) is still not well paid (30-40k). The RNs make 50-75k a year, but have little opportunity to advance. They have 4 year degrees and are capable of doing a significant percentage of what a doctor can do. The top paying nursing jobs (anesthesiologist, ICU, oncology, etc.) often require more than a 4 year degree. The pay is 100k+, but is generally flat over a career.
Engineers are a dime a dozen and do not get paid top dollar out of school as a result. But there are many more opportunities out there for engineers. They can move over to the business side and climb the corporate ladder. They can start their own firm or move up to management level in an established firm. Thus, over a career, engineers will usually come out way, way ahead of nurses.
I don't know what you're smoking but my wife is an Oncologist in Michigan and makes $273,000 plus per year. You lost any and all credibility with that post.
All the engineers complaining about this should discuss this at the the next engineer's union meeting. Oh, wait...
Portland Hobby Jogger wrote:
All the engineers complaining about this should discuss this at the the next engineer's union meeting. Oh, wait...
Apparently they're jealous and didn't spend long enough time being educated like Oncologists do. Oh wait...
Protectionism, maybe? wrote:
I'm not an engineer and I don't think every engineer is brilliant. But they're still way smarter than nurses, on average, and most don't work 36 hours/week either. What gives?
They help save your life?
Portland Hobby Jogger wrote:
All the engineers complaining about this should discuss this at the the next engineer's union meeting. Oh, wait...
I bet you most engineers are probably fine with what nurses make.
way off Roy wrote:
I don't know what you're smoking but my wife is an Oncologist in Michigan and makes $273,000 plus per year. You lost any and all credibility with that post.
An ‘Oncologist’ is a lot different than an ‘Oncology Nurse.’ Which is your wife? I knew a nurse in SF that made probably $300k plus most years, but that’s SF and she worked some overtime.
Because nurses have unions and are tough negotiators. A local nurse's union showed up to the bargaining table with a big bowl of butter cookies. The head of the health system they were negotiating with had heart troubles. He ate half the bowl, and had a heart attack that night. All in a day's work.
student of economics wrote:
Seattle Gray Hair wrote:
One flaw in your argument is that raw academic smarts should be the determining factor, and that if it isn't, there must be protectionism at play. This relative salaries are a function of supply and demand. I don't see any regulatory factors that even justify a protectionism argument.
O.P.'s question has some merit. American Medical Association is an S.R.O. with some lobbying power. Health Insurance Companies most definitely have significant lobbying power. Many nurses are in unions, lobbying power. The factors I stated act differently on nurses pay in Europe. It is not pure Supply & Demand. Without Medicare & Medicaid, salaries for most in health care industry would fall significantly.
Lobbying power isn't "protectionism", and many nurses aren't in unions. Addressing the Medicare angle, without Medicare many of those patients would have private insurance that would pay the medical providers at a higher rate than does Medicare. Obviously, that isn't true for Medicaid patients.
Seattle Gray Hair wrote:
student of economics wrote:
Are you 14 years old? You seem to have no idea what U.S. health care was like pre-Medicare & pre-Medicaid. People did without. We can trace exponential growth in medical doctor earning with Medicare & Medicaid. I did not state unions are protectionist. The factors I stated are closer to Rent Seeking. It is an entirely different thread to discuss U.S. health care in general and cost of U.S. healthcare. You stated all nurses are not in unions. It does not matter. The nurses in unions set the price of labor for all registered nurses. Eg. Walgreen employees in southern Cal are in unions. Walgreen union employees set the labor price for all Walgreen workers nationwide.
O.P.'s question has some merit. American Medical Association is an S.R.O. with some lobbying power. Health Insurance Companies most definitely have significant lobbying power. Many nurses are in unions, lobbying power. The factors I stated act differently on nurses pay in Europe. It is not pure Supply & Demand. Without Medicare & Medicaid, salaries for most in health care industry would fall significantly.
Lobbying power isn't "protectionism", and many nurses aren't in unions. Addressing the Medicare angle, without Medicare many of those patients would have private insurance that would pay the medical providers at a higher rate than does Medicare. Obviously, that isn't true for Medicaid patients.
Nursing jobs cant be outsourced to India
medstudentrunner wrote:
So... I went through engineering at the top ranked school in the world for mechanical engineering ... then went to med school ...
Med school is harder in a different way. I believe 100% of my engineering peers could do well in med school, but maybe 20% of my medicine colleagues would even graduate from my engineering curriculum. . . .
How is Med school harder than engineering school if every single engineering peer could do well in med school, but maybe 20% of your medicine colleagues would even graduate from your engineering curriculum?
Protectionism, maybe? wrote:
I'm not an engineer and I don't think every engineer is brilliant. But they're still way smarter than nurses, on average, and most don't work 36 hours/week either. What gives?
People are not paid for being smart.
Seriously, how is that not obvious?
Two years ago I randomly had a spontaneous dissection of my coronary artery - equal parts unexpected and dramatic. Six miles tempo the day before. I end up in the ER and find myself contemplating the end of my life. At my most fragile moment, a nurse appears. She sits quietly with me and describes, with absolute confidence, the fix to my problem. And so it was. No engineer does that. Nurses, whatever they’re paid, double it.
student of economics wrote:
Seattle Gray Hair wrote:
Lobbying power isn't "protectionism", and many nurses aren't in unions. Addressing the Medicare angle, without Medicare many of those patients would have private insurance that would pay the medical providers at a higher rate than does Medicare. Obviously, that isn't true for Medicaid patients.
I referenced protectionism because that was the original poster's theory, and you found merit in his question.
And yes, I have a pretty good idea about medical costs and payments, because among my roles I have been legal counsel for fiduciaries setting up and maintaining medical plans and pharmacy benefit plans for hundreds of thousands of lives. By the way, there are hospital systems that pay non-union nurses less than union nurses earn in other systems, even in the same geographic market.
Protectionism, maybe? wrote:
I'm not an engineer and I don't think every engineer is brilliant. But they're still way smarter than nurses, on average, and most don't work 36 hours/week either. What gives?
I am not a nurse, but man nurses don't make much; RN make a lot but that requires a lot more schooling than most engineers have, so there is that. Also, I would think nurses are required to take many more risk on a daily basis than any engineer would ever have to do. Engineering is technically challenging sometimes, but usually in those situations the engineers are making good money, but I know much of the time the job can be pretty mindless.
Seattle Gray Hair wrote:
student of economics wrote:
I referenced protectionism because that was the original poster's theory, and you found merit in his question.
And yes, I have a pretty good idea about medical costs and payments, because among my roles I have been legal counsel for fiduciaries setting up and maintaining medical plans and pharmacy benefit plans for hundreds of thousands of lives. By the way, there are hospital systems that pay non-union nurses less than union nurses earn in other systems, even in the same geographic market.
I responded to your post hours ago because you stated Supply & Demand. One cannot discuss U.S. health care without discussing 1910 Flexner Report. One cannot have a serious discussion of RN wages in U.S. without discussing 1980s Chicago RN strike(s). If you practice medical law, you know the ability of nurses to bargain collectively helps keep their wages high. Do non-union nurses make a bit less? Sure. Walgreen workers in MN (non-union) make slightly less than Walgreen workers in L.A., CA (union). Engineers and computer scientists are a collection of mostly Libertarian & Republican men who walk around talking like Adam Smith in the most simplistic terms. Large corporations love that engineers are mostly Republicans. Individual profit maximizers. Look at final ten minutes of film, Reservoir Dogs. Individual profit maximizers. The mostly Democrat RNs work together to make sure they all do well.
medstudentrunner wrote:
So... I went through engineering at the top ranked school in the world for mechanical engineering ... then went to med school ...
Med school is harder in a different way. I believe 100% of my engineering peers could do well in med school, but maybe 20% of my medicine colleagues would even graduate from my engineering curriculum.
Since med school >> nursing school in terms of difficulty, it's safe to say that nursing is way, way easier. You will almost never find a straight A student from high school who goes into nursing, or someone with a 3.5-4.0 GPA from a top-ranked (i.e. top 20) US university.
The percentage of nursing students who could pass my engineering curriculum I'd put at a conservative 0.1%. They are just not wired for it, and complain about how hard nursing school is all the time. If they think that is hard, they have no chance.
Regardless, they get paid more because of supply/demand and heavy unionization. That's how it works.
Lolololol wrote:
Ha.
Hahahaha.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Omfg hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
coming from a physician I have to agree--I took a few extra courses in undergrad-2nd year mechanics course and it was tough, as opposed to biochem for nursing students where I often slept and read Sports illustrated and got an A...the pay difference comes down to simple economics...
deal4412 wrote:
As an RN myself I just want to say that the working conditions for bedside nurses are horrendous so we get paid accordingly. Engineers have it way better in that regard. It's extremely stressful mentally and wearing physically. As far as pay one of my coworkers actually quit engineering and became a nurse when he was laid off from the big 3. He said he never has to worry about not having a job and he can make more money with overtime....he often works 7 days a week and brings in $200k as a nurse with overtime. I just took a new position that starts at $110k for only 3 days a week. If I pickup one day overtime in looking at $155,000 a year. Once I finish NP school I go into mental health I can make close to $160,000+ with no overtime. Oh and by the way, I do not live in a high cost of living area I live in Michigan....
agree-pros and cons with both professions but certainly good compensation with nursing--when a primary care physician is paid little more (in the US at least)--one makes you wonder why you would take on extra years of training in med school and extra debt---physicians generally paid pretty well here in Canada..