Is everyone prepared for Rupp to win Boston?

zzzz wrote:Umm. Probably millions of people in the US have Androgel prescriptions. What's to stop any other runner from "borrowing" some from any other Androgel user? Nothing really.

zzzz wrote:Salazar's test was sketchy for sure. But that's 2009, and for that particular lab. Who's to say that the detection limits are different or can be different for different labs or equipment? As a scientist, I've sent thousands of environmental samples to labs. I can request different detection limits, often for needing to pay a lot more for lower detection limits. It would probably be foolish to rely on that experiment from that long ago and assume that you'd be safe from detection all the time.

zzzz wrote:Salazar giving massages is fine. Anyone could massage themselves with Androgel that they take from any of the other millions of users in the US, so why would we care about the massages?

zzzz wrote:The testers test Rupp a whole lot. If they test him soon after he rubs or gets Androgel rubbed in him, he'll test positive... if that's what he does.

Shoebacca wrote:

zzzz wrote:Umm. Probably millions of people in the US have Androgel prescriptions. What's to stop any other runner from "borrowing" some from any other Androgel user? Nothing really.

The law, namely. It is illegal to do so.

zzzz wrote:Salazar's test was sketchy for sure. But that's 2009, and for that particular lab. Who's to say that the detection limits are different or can be different for different labs or equipment? As a scientist, I've sent thousands of environmental samples to labs. I can request different detection limits, often for needing to pay a lot more for lower detection limits. It would probably be foolish to rely on that experiment from that long ago and assume that you'd be safe from detection all the time.

Maybe you don't understand that he had guys in-house testing specifically how much topical T they could apply to ensure it stayed below required limits for the tests. He wasn't worried about it showing up or not. It's okay to have T in the body naturally. He was just concerned with exactly how much could be added topically to a person without triggering a red flag.

zzzz wrote:Salazar giving massages is fine. Anyone could massage themselves with Androgel that they take from any of the other millions of users in the US, so why would we care about the massages?

It's illegal for Salazar to use his own prescribed medicine on a different person. It's illegal for Rupp to supplement testosterone directly.

zzzz wrote:The testers test Rupp a whole lot. If they test him soon after he rubs or gets Androgel rubbed in him, he'll test positive... if that's what he does.

False. The experimentation we have been talking about taught Salazar precisely how much T he could rub into Rupp without exceeding the amount that triggers a red flag. He could illegally administer the T, but ensure the tested level never triggered an alarm.

zzzz wrote:

You miss my point. I'm saying that just because Salazar has a legitimate prescription for Androgel, that shouldn't by itself place more suspicion on Rupp. A lot of other athletes have dads or grandfathers, uncles, professors, coaches, or other friends and acquaintances who have Androgel prescriptions too because it's a fairly common drug. Those athletes aren't under suspicion because of their relationships with those people because we don't know about them.

I'm not familiar enough with the lab tests for testosterone enough to know for sure if I had a good point or not about the Salazar lab experiments from 2009 perhaps not giving enough information to beat tests from today or future tests. I'm guessing that there could be moving goal posts here for dopers at some point. There is no amount of exogenous testosterone that is allowed. So the 2009 tests aren't to stay below a limit for exogenous testosterone - any amount detected is . I know they do a testosterone to epitestosterone ratio (T:E) test first to see if there is reason for suspicious. Then they do a carbon isotope ratio test to determine if the testosterone is exogenous. Perhaps the experiments were to find out what amount tips the T:E ratio. Or maybe they were to find what amount is detectable by the carbon isotope ratio test.

But if they suspect someone of using Androgel, I don't see why they wouldn't go to the carbon isotope ratio test directly even with the T:E within limits. I don't have the interest to dig into that much further, but we non-lab experts don't know that how sensitive that test can be, and how much more sensitive it can be now compared to what it was in 2009. Maybe an expert can speak to that.

It's been repeated so much here that Salazar rubs Androgel on Rupp the some people seem to think that's been established fact. But it's just speculation. Like I said before, it's OK for Salazar to give Rupp massages, even if they have other people to give massages. It's not OK for Salazar to apply Androgel to Rupp, but we don't know that he does. Rupp still has plausible deniability.

The testosterone testing experiment is definitely sketchy, but the story that Salazar was paranoid about sabatoge is almost believable considering his personality and the event that was referenced (don't remember the details).

anacondarunner wrote:

As someone who became a fan of running during Ryan Hall's heyday, I couldn't have imagined a much more exciting development for US distance running than an American-born athlete winning the Boston Marathon. Well, it certainly seems inevitable that Galen is going to win Boston this year, but for me the accomplishment will ring hollow and engender little more than a shrug (just as his Chicago victory did).

It's truly unfortunate; I vividly remember skipping class to watch Hall run Boston in 09, 10, and 11, and even though he didn't win, I found his performances to be compelling and inspiring. And I always thought it would be so, so cool if an American-born runner ever somehow managed to win Boston. But for it to be Rupp after all we've learned from the ProPublica and USADA reports ... man, what a bummer.

An intelligent person can't read all the facts in the USADA report and NOT come to the conclusion that Rupp and Salazar have almost certainly violated antidoping rules. More specifically, based on the facts, it's HIGHLY likely that Rupp and Salazar have abused synthetic testosterone for performance gains. (So spare me your cries of "Rupp and Salazar only operate in the gray area" because that's not remotely true.) Consequently, when Galen wins, it'll do nothing to show that CLEAN American-born athletes can compete with the top East Africans in the marathon. At least in my mind.

I hope this post doesn't get deleted. I can't be the only running fan who feels this way.