Truly incredible: Great minds think alike: Al Sal agrees with LetsRun: Mo Farah will go out behind lead pack in 62:15

String Bean Runner wrote:

"I think the Letsrun.com article stating you can't run a world class 1500 and marathon time is incorrect. Someone like Mo, who is exceptionally lean, is clearing lactate incredibly due to his huge aerobic system. Someone like Alan Webb in his prime was producing and utilizing incredibly high levels of lactate and still able to function just long enough to close out a 1500.

The latter type of runner comes at a fast 1500 from a different method, and has more muscle mass, so they are the types that can not be world class at 1500 up through the marathon."

+10000000000000

Totally, absolutely agree.

TOTALLY.

Speculative at best. You really have little idea how those guys are doing what they do(did).

Webb had little trouble running the 5 and 10 in his prime and likely could have done much better at those distances if he'd moved to them earlier.

Bang on Guppy. Watch Mo fade if he goes out in 62.15. He should be going out in 63 for his debut. So what if he doesn't win. More important to have a positve experience in your first marathon by finishing strong than having to shuffle along the Embankment or even collapsing again because he's gone out too fast.

I also think the Letsrun.com article (point #1) stating you can't run a world class 1500 and marathon time is incorrect.

You have consider that Farah is one of the greatest distance runners of all-time and may be capable of doing things that were previously thought to be impossible. I believe that some of the current marathon greats could have run incredible 1500's if they'd chosen to focus on track instead of the marathon. Take Kipsang for example, if he had moved to Oregon to be coached by speed obsessed Salazar instead of moving up to the marathon, how fast could he have run?

I completely agree that Mo has very little chance of winning on Sunday, but it has nothing to do with point #1. It's the fact that he's a novice at the event and he's taking on the best marathon runners in the world, who probably could have rivaled him on the track, had they chosen to go in that direction.

Kipchoge has done a 3:50 and a 2:04. This sort of range is going to be the norm if it isn't already.

lowering iqs wrote:

So it is considered brilliant now not to go out at WORLD RECORD PACE in your FIRST marathon...

The "brilliant" part is to have all your competitors go out at WR pace, on a course that's very unlikely to produce a WR. But it's not only brilliant, it's a little too brilliant for Farah's competitors to play along.

If Haile does go out at sub WR pace, and Farah does not follow him, Haile can enjoy running a nice half marathon. He will have fantastic crowds cheering for him, and pick up a decent pay check. Perhaps he can even fool some American commentators in thinking he's going for the win. But he won't have the company of Kipsang and Mutai.

It's more amazing and relevant that he fell down hard and still almost caught the greatest distance runner in history.

tooting wrote:

He couldn't even beat Bekele in that 60+ minute half race. He has never demonstrated the ability to run sub 2:04.

I understand it may seem speculative. However, it's understood that East Africans can sustain/function at a higher level of lactate at threshold, but can not produce the same peak levels. For instance, many East Africans can sustain closer to 6 mmol of lactate at threshold vs. closer to 4 mmol for most well-trained Euros.

The greater the aerobic development, the more lactate that can be cleared and the greater the range of the athlete.

Alan Webb, whose accomplishments and range are truly incredible, very likely would have been better served to develop his aerobic capacity more so he could clear lactate better. Instead, he seemed to focus on the ability to create and utilize as much lactate as possible. This sort of pigeonholed him into being an 800-1500 guy, although he didn't take the 800 as serious as I wish he would have. I think he could have run some very special 800s, but that's a different thread.

It is not unprecedented that someone is world class at races lasting around 4:00 on up to 60:00+. Witness Chris Boardman, who at one time was the very best at the Individual Pursuit (lasting about 4:10) and the hour record simultaneously.

The marathon is reaching a level of professionalism that requires the best in the world to be world-class or very nearly so at every distance from 1500m up. Even in the 800m, if you can't train into sub 1:50 shape within a month or two of specificity for it, you will not be able to run with the greatest marathoners in the world.

This is a real golden age of the Marathon, where one must be a renaissance runner of sorts, being very well developed at all distances.

The one who can hold the WR and win the major championships in the Marathon shall have the honor bestowed upon him as the greatest distance runner in the world.

I reckon Bekele will be able to pull this off in the next year if Mo doesn't do it before him.

So it turns out Mo is running in the slower pack with who? Whom? Kiprotich. Where in your article did you mention that?

Wtfunny for the win.

:)

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MIC ITW wrote:

Someone like Mo, who is exceptionally lean, is clearing lactate incredibly due to his huge aerobic system. Someone like Alan Webb in his prime was producing and utilizing incredibly high levels of lactate and still able to function just long enough to close out a 1500.

Do you even know what lactate is? Or why it is produced?

pseudoscience much? wrote:

MIC ITW wrote:

Someone like Mo, who is exceptionally lean, is clearing lactate incredibly due to his huge aerobic system. Someone like Alan Webb in his prime was producing and utilizing incredibly high levels of lactate and still able to function just long enough to close out a 1500.

Do you even know what lactate is? Or why it is produced?

I can't imagine any answer of mine will satisfy you, so maybe you will share your interpretation of what lactate is and why it is produced.

Typically, in regards to lactate I've found the explanations given by Jan Olbrecht and Yuri Verkhoshansky to be nice. If you have some more insight, though, I'd read it with much interest. Thanks in advance.

Olbrecht's writing on the subject is rather reductionist. He ignores the huge influence of the nervous system and attributes everything to aerobic/anaerobic capacity.

Lactate production is the normal route for glycogen and glucose metabolism.

The idea of top athletes having superior lactate clearance is just illogical. That would mean that they are less energy efficient, using more fuel to run faster rather than the same amount of fuel to run faster, which is what they are actuall doing.

pseudoscience much? wrote:

Olbrecht's writing on the subject is rather reductionist. He ignores the huge influence of the nervous system and attributes everything to aerobic/anaerobic capacity.

Lactate production is the normal route for glycogen and glucose metabolism.

The idea of top athletes having superior lactate clearance is just illogical. That would mean that they are less energy efficient, using more fuel to run faster rather than the same amount of fuel to run faster, which is what they are actuall doing.

In fact, Olbrecht talks about the nervous system extensively. As does Verkhoshanksy.

Using more fuel to run faster does not necessarily mean they are less energy efficient, it just means they are able to burn more fuel. Is it so illogical that all else essentially being equal, those who can burn the most fuel would be the fastest?

If the best athletes are simply the most efficient, why can't science agree on that? It's not difficult to test efficiency.

From what I've read, in regards to elite athletes typically those with the greatest efficiency have lower VO2 capacities, and those with lower efficiency have higher VO2 capacities. Athletes at both ends of the spectrum are still limited by the amount of fuel they can burn in the allotted time.

You've really done nothing to further explain what lactate is and why it's produced. If you have any recommended sources of reading, I'd gladly check it out. Same for any sources regarding efficiency being the ultimate physiological determinant of success in endurance sport.

I still maintain that Olbrecht's writing is reductionist. Athletes' aerobic and anaerobic capacities are a combination of genetics, good health and basic fitness. Training harder does not alter these capacities.

What makes the biggest differences is a combination of the improved in neural pathways (improvement in running skill for speed endurance) and the way the athlete responds emotionally to the challenges. Also hormonal changes, and the variabilities of cardiac and circulatory function, but again these variables are dependent on just basic health and fitness.

Lactate is the end product of muslce glycogen and blood glucose breakdown, hence it is always produced. Accompanying the production of lactate there is a small amount of ATP available for anaerobic respiration. The lactate molecules are easily transported either across the cell or in the blood for aerobic respiration either in local or distant mitochondria.

I'm not saying that efficiency is the most important determiant of success in endurance sport, but it is the most important in speed, endurance and speed endurance. Psychological factors give athletes the edge in both training and racing over opponents who are less determined to succeed.

When you try to explain what makes one athlete better than another, you must not downplay or ignore these factors. Reductionism is the epitome of bad science. Unfortunately it is all too common amongst sports scientists.

It sounds like you are saying the biggest improvement in fitness comes from handling the "emotional challenge" of exertion better and having more fluid mechanics via better neural pathways.

Training doesn't affect the aerobic or anaerobic capacity, it really only affects the neural pathways and emotional strength?

So what sort of training plan would you advise to maximize my neural pathways and emotional responses?

I don't think that we can change our basic personality. How much we want to succeed is something that cannot be trained in my opinion. I think most people will agree with this?

Being in the right envrionment must sure help a lot though. The right places to run, good people around you to motivate you, good weather etc etc.

Neural pathways are trained by repetition. I don't have any profound insight to offer, but I do think that mountain running offers huge benefits. Think about running 5 miles up a mountain and back down. If the grade is not severe, you get an endurance workout and a speed endurance workout all in one. I think this is the most natural training we can do even up to 15 miles up and 15 down again. If done regularly, it makes interval training much easier to cope with.

Interesting. Do you happen to live in the mountains or just found the training in that sort of locale to provide the best stimulus?

I would think most people would be well served to run the downhill portion first after a short warmup, of course, while the muscles still have the ability to help absorb the high impact forces. Then turn around and run up the mountain. If the muscles are fatigued and therefore compromised it transmits a lot of stress to the connective and structural tissues.

Suggesting that we get an endurance workout running up the mountain would seem to admit that the aerobic capacity can be trained quite a bit. Or maybe this is more a function of getting a lot of repetitions in to create neural firing endurance?