Sifan Hassan ran her world record in cheater spikes, does it count!?!?

rojo wrote:

Bizarre shoe fetish wrote:

Your continued and constant obsession with this is just plain weird.

I don't think the obsession is weird at all. In running, a small advantage is huge. There is a no rule, no no has scene it enforced and people want to know what the deal is.

Someone explained to me in another thread that the actual shoe doesn't have be available but similar ones do. So the fact that Jared Ward's Saucony marathon shoe isn't available doesn't matter because Nike has it's own and presumably better shoe out there.

But there is no one else out there with a 4% spike. Perhaps Nike could argue that the 4% flat isn't that much different but I totally understand why someone is obsessed about this. If we have a new rule, we want to see if it will be enforced.

I know I saw a good photo of the spikes somewhere today online. If you find them, please post it.

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

RonSwanson wrote:

Carbon fiber zoom x spikes! I know they’ve been around for a bit, but now another world record falls to Nike technology... Are they fair, what do you think??

Pics of the shoes seen in this article:

www.sportsnewsireland.com/other_sports/sifan-hassan-breaks-womens-mile-world-record-in-monaco/amp/

Other pics on insta:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzDcTfCnQ_d/?hl=en

Okay I think everyone should just calm down here. Here are the realities of this spike (the tooling or bottom unit - whatever you want to call it)

Its a carbon fiber plate (not illegal been used in track and field for years) with 3 zoom air (pressurized to resist compression) bags in the forefoot (all that really matters but they do have 1 in the heel) underneath said plate . It's then covered in a TPU skin to essentially keep it all together, house the receptacles and have a flat bottom surface to contact the track. The only real difference between this tooling/bottom unit/plate vs lets say, a Jasari, are the inclusion of the zoom air bags and the outer skin.

So really what we are assuming here (in believing these are some kind of magical cheater spikes that are powering people to insane performances) is that 3 zoom air bags are difference. I hate to tell you this but they aren't. In fact, if anything, the zoom air bags serve two main things - increasing cushion and adding weight - both of which are detrimental to performance.

Zoom are bags are cushioning based on density created by pressurized air - they don't have any magical "spring back" capabilities. The advantage of this over say EVA is that when you want to increase density you have to pack more of it into the same space and it's heavier. When you run, your goal is to impart as much of your bodies force through your feet into the ground. It is the amount of force and the rate at which you impart this force and the direction of the force that dictates how fast you will run. Any, I repeat ANY, kind of cushioning is detrimental to this maximal force and will limit how fast you run. This is because our feet only contact the ground for a very short period of time. For any cushioning in a shoe to be close to perfectly efficient in terms of energy transfer it needs to compress and "pack out" almost completely in the time that the foot is in contact with the ground and transferring the athletes peak force.

This is why the Vaporfly 4 and Next % shoes work so well on the roads. If you ever seen a 4% midsole cut in half length wise you will see around 4mm of super soft (easy to compress "Zoom X" foam, the carbon fiber plate and then another 4-6mm of super soft Zoom X foam under the forefoot where the entire energy/force transfer takes place. If you were to visualize the midsole profile just as you are about to push off on your forefoot during a footstrike, you would see almost perfect "packing out" of the Zoom X foam around the carbon fiber plate which allows highly efficient force transfer. The plate in the 4 and Next % isn't a "spring" - that's ridiculous - look at a Paralympians "blade" - the dimension and thickness of carbon and then ask yourself how a flat plate with a small amount of curvature "springs" even the lightest of athletes forwards. It doesn't - again, it simply allows the most efficient transfer of force. The plate curvature simply creates helps prompt a nice quick transition onto the forefoot - that cool feeling when most distance runners put on sprint spikes and comment on how it "gets them on their toes". Its not rocket science.

So back to this spike. The zoom air bags are approximately 8mm thick and have enough density of air in them that they will never compress fully under an athletes total foot-strike force. They may be a lot denser than any kind of EVA/PU/particle based foam and somewhat lighter but will won't fully allow maximum energy transfer in the same way a flat carbon plate would. They are a cushioning element but really considering the track itself is cushioned (to actually a substantial degree vs say asphalt) and that most athletes currently wearing the shoe are running 800-5000m, this cushioning isn't really needed (we know this because athletes have run up to 10km on the track in far less cushioned shoes like the Jasari, Victory and even Matumbo in the past with no issues). So what do they really do? Add weight. That is why the uppers you see on the shoes are basically like onion sacks with no reinforcements and are ripping after only 1-2 races and a few workouts.

I actually think its a nice training spike. Little bit heavier, still stiffer and more energy efficient than the Vaporfly - especially on track, but not as aggressive as what these guys should be wearing (the Victory) if they really wanted to run with maximum efficiency of force and energy transfer.

Then why, you may argue, has it appeared to be validated so well with athletes such as Hassan, Klosterhalfen, Grice, Engels etc? Coincidence and most probably a nice little mental boost from believing the success of the 4% (which is based on actual scientific factors) is applying to their product. These athletes are in amazing physical shape - its almost disrespectful to suggest they aren't and a piece of footwear is enabling their efforts. This shape + placebo effect (to what degree is immeasurable but as runners we all understand it in some form) is really the "cheat code" here.

So sorry guys, hate to tell you it's not the spikes - but the story and mystique around the spikes is a very clever piece of marketing. One that will no doubt sell a f$#k-load of these when they hit the market, despite the reality being that Nike actually offer and have offered superior performing product for years now.

But by all means go drop $180+ on these when they come out - if you believe in it its almost more important than what the product actually does anyways.

SS

Salvatore Stitchmo wrote:

RonSwanson wrote:

Carbon fiber zoom x spikes! I know they’ve been around for a bit, but now another world record falls to Nike technology... Are they fair, what do you think??

Pics of the shoes seen in this article:

www.sportsnewsireland.com/other_sports/sifan-hassan-breaks-womens-mile-world-record-in-monaco/amp/

Other pics on insta:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzDcTfCnQ_d/?hl=en

Okay I think everyone should just calm down here. Here are the realities of this spike (the tooling or bottom unit - whatever you want to call it)

Its a carbon fiber plate (not illegal been used in track and field for years) with 3 zoom air (pressurized to resist compression) bags in the forefoot (all that really matters but they do have 1 in the heel) underneath said plate . It's then covered in a TPU skin to essentially keep it all together, house the receptacles and have a flat bottom surface to contact the track. The only real difference between this tooling/bottom unit/plate vs lets say, a Jasari, are the inclusion of the zoom air bags and the outer skin.

So really what we are assuming here (in believing these are some kind of magical cheater spikes that are powering people to insane performances) is that 3 zoom air bags are difference. I hate to tell you this but they aren't. In fact, if anything, the zoom air bags serve two main things - increasing cushion and adding weight - both of which are detrimental to performance.

Zoom are bags are cushioning based on density created by pressurized air - they don't have any magical "spring back" capabilities. The advantage of this over say EVA is that when you want to increase density you have to pack more of it into the same space and it's heavier. When you run, your goal is to impart as much of your bodies force through your feet into the ground. It is the amount of force and the rate at which you impart this force and the direction of the force that dictates how fast you will run. Any, I repeat ANY, kind of cushioning is detrimental to this maximal force and will limit how fast you run. This is because our feet only contact the ground for a very short period of time. For any cushioning in a shoe to be close to perfectly efficient in terms of energy transfer it needs to compress and "pack out" almost completely in the time that the foot is in contact with the ground and transferring the athletes peak force.

This is why the Vaporfly 4 and Next % shoes work so well on the roads. If you ever seen a 4% midsole cut in half length wise you will see around 4mm of super soft (easy to compress "Zoom X" foam, the carbon fiber plate and then another 4-6mm of super soft Zoom X foam under the forefoot where the entire energy/force transfer takes place. If you were to visualize the midsole profile just as you are about to push off on your forefoot during a footstrike, you would see almost perfect "packing out" of the Zoom X foam around the carbon fiber plate which allows highly efficient force transfer. The plate in the 4 and Next % isn't a "spring" - that's ridiculous - look at a Paralympians "blade" - the dimension and thickness of carbon and then ask yourself how a flat plate with a small amount of curvature "springs" even the lightest of athletes forwards. It doesn't - again, it simply allows the most efficient transfer of force. The plate curvature simply creates helps prompt a nice quick transition onto the forefoot - that cool feeling when most distance runners put on sprint spikes and comment on how it "gets them on their toes". Its not rocket science.

So back to this spike. The zoom air bags are approximately 8mm thick and have enough density of air in them that they will never compress fully under an athletes total foot-strike force. They may be a lot denser than any kind of EVA/PU/particle based foam and somewhat lighter but will won't fully allow maximum energy transfer in the same way a flat carbon plate would. They are a cushioning element but really considering the track itself is cushioned (to actually a substantial degree vs say asphalt) and that most athletes currently wearing the shoe are running 800-5000m, this cushioning isn't really needed (we know this because athletes have run up to 10km on the track in far less cushioned shoes like the Jasari, Victory and even Matumbo in the past with no issues). So what do they really do? Add weight. That is why the uppers you see on the shoes are basically like onion sacks with no reinforcements and are ripping after only 1-2 races and a few workouts.

I actually think its a nice training spike. Little bit heavier, still stiffer and more energy efficient than the Vaporfly - especially on track, but not as aggressive as what these guys should be wearing (the Victory) if they really wanted to run with maximum efficiency of force and energy transfer.

Then why, you may argue, has it appeared to be validated so well with athletes such as Hassan, Klosterhalfen, Grice, Engels etc? Coincidence and most probably a nice little mental boost from believing the success of the 4% (which is based on actual scientific factors) is applying to their product. These athletes are in amazing physical shape - its almost disrespectful to suggest they aren't and a piece of footwear is enabling their efforts. This shape + placebo effect (to what degree is immeasurable but as runners we all understand it in some form) is really the "cheat code" here.

So sorry guys, hate to tell you it's not the spikes - but the story and mystique around the spikes is a very clever piece of marketing. One that will no doubt sell a f$#k-load of these when they hit the market, despite the reality being that Nike actually offer and have offered superior performing product for years now.

But by all means go drop $180+ on these when they come out - if you believe in it its almost more important than what the product actually does anyways.

SS