Lagat 4:54, Levins 4:55, Torrence, Bumbi, Jager 4:57 - mile/1500/3000 equivalent?

Yessum · 2014-02-15T18:18:55-05:00

Pretty good races across the board, but a very unusual distance. What do y'all think they can do at USAs based on these runs?

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12 years ago 02/16/2014 7:09pm EST

re: tfc

tfc wrote:
sawthatonecoming wrote:
Actually, it does. You're expending energy to maintain balance (especially for taller runners) and change direction. The sharper the turn, the more energy you're going to expend doing so. You could run a 3000m with 90 degree angle changes every 100m. Do you think that it would be as fast as running a 3000m on a track with smooth turns? No. Take that hyperbolic example down a few notches and you have your answer on why an indoor track is slower than an outdoor track.
In a sport that takes every tenth of an ounce in a shoe and every extra mile a week seriously, this is just another thing that makes a small difference in performance.
No, actually it doesn't. You are just making things up. Where has there ever been recorded evidence that it takes more energy for taller people to remain standing up than for shorter people? Even if there was a link there, there's still no link between that and the amount of energy left available to apply to forward running motion. Again, you are just making things up.

Trolling me or just dumb and obstinate? This is basic stuff. Have you ever driven a car on a curving road or mountain road? Do you know why they have you slow down for the turns? The force carries you outwards. You have to correct your vehicle to stay on the turn.

Run a 400m indoors. At that speed, you can really feel the forces at work.

12 years ago 02/16/2014 7:16pm EST

re: ukathleticscoach

ukathleticscoach wrote:
El G ran 4:44 outdoors he should have a go at that

Are you making a joke? When Walker ran 3:49.4y he ran 4:51.4 the next yr for a WR. He called it the best record he ever ran.

4:51 is worth about 3:49 and 4:52 is worth about 3:50.

Indeed, Cram broke that record NINE yrs later by .01, the yr that he ran 3:46y and 3:29.67.

To run 4:44 outdoors, you would need to be in 3:26/7:22 shape easy.

El G ran 7:23.09 the same month he ran the 4:44.

12 years ago 02/16/2014 7:25pm EST

re: sawthatonecoming

sawthatonecoming wrote:
Trolling me or just dumb and obstinate? This is basic stuff. Have you ever driven a car on a curving road or mountain road? Do you know why they have you slow down for the turns? The force carries you outwards. You have to correct your vehicle to stay on the turn.
Run a 400m indoors. At that speed, you can really feel the forces at work.

You're the dumb one here. Distance runners aren't going anywhere near as fast as 400m runners are. And they certainly aren't going anywhere near as fast as a car. So, yes, in a sprint you can feel the forces. But there is no proof that these forces are noticeable in distance running.

And yes I know why they have you slow down for the turns in cars. You obviously don't. There is no force carrying you outwards. It's inertia.

12 years ago 02/16/2014 7:28pm EST

re: tfc

tfc wrote:
sawthatonecoming wrote:
Trolling me or just dumb and obstinate? This is basic stuff. Have you ever driven a car on a curving road or mountain road? Do you know why they have you slow down for the turns? The force carries you outwards. You have to correct your vehicle to stay on the turn.
Run a 400m indoors. At that speed, you can really feel the forces at work.
You're the dumb one here. Distance runners aren't going anywhere near as fast as 400m runners are. And they certainly aren't going anywhere near as fast as a car. So, yes, in a sprint you can feel the forces. But there is no proof that these forces are noticeable in distance running.
And yes I know why they have you slow down for the turns in cars. You obviously don't. There is no force carrying you outwards. It's inertia.

Outside observer. You are the dumb one.

12 years ago 02/16/2014 9:30pm EST

re: Andre Hillsman

Andre Hillsman wrote:
He's right. The only reason outdoor records are faster is because:
Some runners feel that if they go hard during indoor season it may put them in a position to when they have to maintain their peak too long or if they do the 2 peak system they might not be able to be sharp in time for August
Indoor championships are only every other year so not many athletes want to go after records and get themselves in top shape early when they're not even going to be able to use that shape on the world championship stage
On the off years for outdoor (1 every for 4 years (no Olympics or WC like this year)) you still have the DL races which are going to still promote fast times (like Galen Rupp's 26:48 AR at the 2010 Brussles meet)
Yes, it is true that less curves are going to make it easier however, what about the banked curves? The fastest indoor track (in which most records are broken) have the same mondo surface that the fast outdoor tracks do so that's out of the question, but they also are banked. Banked track help with the centripetal force of your body when rotating around a curve and helps with your bodies torque (an objects ability to accelerate around a curve), are there any outdoor banked 400 tracks? No... So the fact that 400m tracks have less curves is an advantage over indoor tracks, but the fact that many fast indoor tracks are banked is an advantage over outdoor tracks. These advantages pretty much cancel each other out. Another factor is enviornment. In indoors you always have a controlled environment for optimal preformance while on outdoor you might have bad conditions. Therefore when it comes to environment problems, sometimes indoor tracks and facility can actually be faster.
You're more likely to get more money is outdoor races so because of financial opportunities this may be a upside for records outdoor being faster. In some countries, athletes don't get paid like US athletes, so when they have the opportunity to go to and try to break a record at a fast DL meet then they take it.
Indoor season is only from mid-Jan to mid-March, while outdoor season is from late march all the way to September if you include the last couple of DL meets so outdoor has a bigger time frame to set better times.
Also, to be aerobically fit, you must do a lot of base mileage from September-December. During those down months, it's going to be easier to peak long term (more towards the outdoor season) than to just do a bunch of base mileage and try to rip some fast times a month later, it doesn't work like that for most athletes.
Conclusion: Indoor tracks are just as fast, if not faster than outdoor track, but the shape of the athletes and the athletes wanting to do indoor is the reason outdoor records are faster.

Well put! Someone with sense.

Cheers for posting.

12 years ago 02/17/2014 4:47am EST

re: Are you having a laugh?

Are you having a laugh? wrote:
[quote]ukathleticscoach wrote:
El G ran 4:44 outdoors he should have a go at that

Are you making a joke? When Walker ran 3:49.4y he ran 4:51.4 the next yr for a WR. He called it the best record he ever ran.

4:51 is worth about 3:49 and 4:52 is worth about 3:50.

Yes, thanks for the stats pointing out that this was a weak record

12 years ago 02/17/2014 4:59am EST

re: Are you having a laugh?

Are you having a laugh? wrote:To run 4:44 outdoors, you would need to be in 3:26/7:22 shape easy

actually

even though 4'44.79 appears superficially a great wr, it is weak compared to others except 1k/10k

mathematically,

4'44.79 =

1'41.84

2'11.30

3'27.92

7'21.45

12'40.65

26'17.87

12 years ago 02/17/2014 9:47am EST

re: ventolin^3

Thanks to the person who pointed out Lagat's 7:34 in Karlsruhe last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAgeDpaO06g&app=desktop

I think he could have came very close to breaking the AR that day (was this before Rupp's 7:30? I can't recall). Remember, he would negatively split his 8:09 2-Mile AR later on in the season. 8:09 is worth appx 7:34 as well, just saying (though it seems that most people who run that 2M time tend to run faster than the equivalent 3k time when they get into a 3k race..)

12 years ago 02/17/2014 12:10pm EST

re: Lost Soul

So to get this back on track, what do I think this means for them going forward?

I think it means that Lagat will make the 3000 team, and that Bumbi and Jager will be on the outside looking in. Bumbi is having a promising early winter campaign, though, with a 7:37 PR "rust buster" and an AR (if not for Lagat and Torrence) 2000m. Should get to 13:05ish this year.

5000 will be Lagat and Rupp. Hill a close third, then Bumbi, Jager

Levins has improved every race. 13:19i, then 7:41 (4 seconds behind Bumbi, 7 behind Hill), then 4:55. Might mean that his natural distance is shorter than we all thought. Those early 130 mile weeks might have pushed him to longer distances than he's naturally most suited for.

12 years ago 02/17/2014 12:17pm EST

re: smammer

smammer wrote:
Levins has improved every race. 13:19i, then 7:41 (4 seconds behind Bumbi, 7 behind Hill), then 4:55. Might mean that his natural distance is shorter than we all thought. Those early 130 mile weeks might have pushed him to longer distances than he's naturally most suited for.

There's no such thing as naturally suited for. You will be good at whatever you train for.

12 years ago 02/17/2014 2:10pm EST

re: the anti-rojo

Maybe he should gun for the 100 then. Much more prestige there. Not to mention you get ripped instead of having to be a scrawny runt.

12 years ago 02/22/2014 5:05pm EST

re: sawthatonecoming

Did you see that 3000? I don't care what you say, the only reason Lagat hasn't been running 7:30 - 7:34 indoors over the last few years is he hasn't been in the right race. I have seen nothing that indicates he isn't at near peak speed. 4:54 2000, crushing some good runners, then a 3000 today absolutely destroying Rupp, Hill, Lomong, Bumbi...

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Lagat 4:54, Levins 4:55, Torrence, Bumbi, Jager 4:57 - mile/1500/3000 equivalent?

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