It's not hard to say that Ed Eyestone is one of the top American marathon coaches, not everyone has had two guys under 2:10
Former BYU athletes Nico Montanez, 13th in 2:09.59 and Clayton Young, 18th in 2:11:51, although Nico runs for Mammoth Track Club, I think Clayton is still coached by Ed.
It took Rupp six tries to run faster in the marathon.
And it seems to me that at this moment Conner is the best active US marathon runner on the men's side. And since he actually races more than twice a year, maybe we'll see another attempt.
Because Rupp ran a flat course in perfect weather............oh ya he's NEVER been in a race like that, EVER.
Somewhat impressive debut by Mantz, but to say he's "the best active US marathon runner" is laughable. It's like Galen didn't run 2:06 in 75 degree weather with 20 mph winds just a year ago, or jog a 2:09 at World's with a back injury......
It took Rupp six tries to run faster in the marathon.
And it seems to me that at this moment Conner is the best active US marathon runner on the men's side. And since he actually races more than twice a year, maybe we'll see another attempt.
Because Rupp ran a flat course in perfect weather............oh ya he's NEVER been in a race like that, EVER.
Somewhat impressive debut by Mantz, but to say he's "the best active US marathon runner" is laughable. It's like Galen didn't run 2:06 in 75 degree weather with 20 mph winds just a year ago, or jog a 2:09 at World's with a back injury......
Overall some good points but Rupp’s PR came at Prague in 2018, a fast course, in decent weather. So to say he’s NEVER been in a race like that is disingenuous.
Also, if you watched the post race presser & looked at Mantz’s comments on Strava, the early pacing wasn’t ideal, he had to be the pacer for the second pack into the wind after 10k and got a little carried away, which cost him later. Now, is a marathon ever going to go absolutely perfectly? Of course not, and hopefully Mantz learns from this.
Rupp is still the GOAT from track to marathon, but let’s see how Mantz goes in his next couple and at the Olympic Marathon trials. Besides maybe Rupp, who else is his competition?
From what it seems like he said after the race he knew he went out a little too fast. The first 5k he was in the back of the lead pack then dropped back and ended up in front of the second group.
I actually caught him in person at mile 15 and it looked like he knew sub-2:08 wasn't gonna happen. Still exciting to see a new American face in the top 10
My last post, admittedly a bit flip, got deleted. But can we honestly allow this narrow-minded commentary about his form? Dude just had a killer debut and we're already focusing on perceived flaws?
What's narrow minded about it? I simply stated my opinion that Mantz is a 2:06 guy at best and I base that opinion largely around visible inefficiencies in his gait. That's not an insult nor any sort of personal bias against him.
I'll indulge you by going a bit deeper. If you have any coaching or kinesiology background it is readily apparent that Mantz uses far more energy to hold a pace than his fellow competitors, primarily East Africans, that exhibit impeccable mechanics. He is covering less ground with each stride and, if I had access to high-speed video analysis, I would also venture that he spends significantly more time on the ground as well. Multiply those small comparative losses by tens of thousands of strides and it adds up to minutes over the course of a marathon. There have been numerous studies that examined the stride length stride frequency, hip angles, and ground contact time of the best Africans vs. runners from everywhere else and each one notes that a huge part of African distance running success comes down to superior biomechanics. Mantz can certainly work to improve his form and to gain additional hip mobility, but it would take years to notch small improvements and any tweaks might lead to injury and missed racing/income opportunities during his short competitive window. Barring that, he would have to overcome his present stride hitches with a superior level of fitness. Is that even possible in a sport where victory and also ran status are a function of tiny incremental gains?
Speaking of training, others have rightfully pointed out that coaches like Canova, Rosa, and Sang have revolutionized marathon preparation. Mantz is still training in a traditional Western manner: a 10K program with some longer runs and tempo efforts to "extend" his range. This thinking is outdated. I will also posit that staying in Provo and working out with college kids is also going to limit his development. It is very difficult to make progress when you are clearly the best and most developed athlete in a training group. Who is pushing you? Who can stay with you on the marathon specific work? You are essentially training alone for a lot of important work. The camps in Africa and clubs like BTC provide an environment that is much more conducive to challenge and being pushed outside of your envelope. At the risk of being bashed for it, giving up 50+ training days a year due to religious convictions also puts you at a disadvantage. This plus the usual 1-2 week breaks after track or a marathon effectively means that you are only training nine months out of the year. No other elites are doing this. I respect the role of faith in people's lives, but if taking every Sunday and most Christian holidays off is your choice, then there are fitness limitations that come with that choice.
Grit and mental toughness are the most overrated cliche in sports! Do you think that Kipchoge is not tough? Does Benson Kipruto lack the will to win? Of course not. But having a slightly better ability to deal with pain in a marathon does not make you minutes faster than the men running with less effort next to you at 2:05 pace. Americans are too in love with the legend of Pre. Our media mythologizes jocks that play with the flu or soreness. We practically lionize athletes that play a game the day after a beloved relative dies. This notion has been completely oversold and leads to a ridiculous amount of fan boy hopefulness because their hero showed tenacity in college races. I personally like how Mantz raced at BYU, especially in XC, but that is like winning at the minor league level. It shows potential but isn't a guarantee of success at the next level against better competition. It is a different sport at the pro level and most pros from elsewhere are competing for far more than moderate fame, shoe contracts, and IG followers.
I will end with this. Connor Mantz has the potential to put together a fine career and to be regarded as a top US marathon runner. My advice to him would be to skip time trial/record attempt races like Chicago and Berlin and to focus on NYC, Boston, and championship races that are not pancake flat. His ability to grind and wear down opponents on tougher courses (like the OK State XC course) will serve him well. If he makes the team, I honestly think that he could surprise on the proposed hilly course in Paris. He does not have Ryan Hall's efficiency or Galen Rupp's track speed but he could elevate himself into American marathon lore by following a path closer to Meb's.
^^^This, all of this. One of the best posts I've read on this board in a long time. Thank you!
So people are now excited that the top American finished 7th in WMM?
I miss the days when I expected at least one American on the podium.
You mean the days when only Europeans took running seriously? And when prize money was really small and not really worth it and much harder for people over seas to run American races?
Hey man, I don’t subscribe to that religion, but I’d much rather give 10% to a church than tithe 40% of my income to governments that squander at least half of it. Because that’s what they do, misallocate it in the name of someone’s oppression while building their own personal, multi-milloinaire wealth.
Now let’s get back on topic about Mantz being a badass.
If he can’t run 2:06 on that course, in those ideal conditions, and with bouncy shoes then forget about it. 25 is not young in the thon anymore. Won’t be surprised if he never breaks 2:08.
Haters gonna hate…
Only 1540 or so men have run as fast or faster for the marathon...
Because Rupp ran a flat course in perfect weather............oh ya he's NEVER been in a race like that, EVER.
Somewhat impressive debut by Mantz, but to say he's "the best active US marathon runner" is laughable. It's like Galen didn't run 2:06 in 75 degree weather with 20 mph winds just a year ago, or jog a 2:09 at World's with a back injury......
Overall some good points but Rupp’s PR came at Prague in 2018, a fast course, in decent weather. So to say he’s NEVER been in a race like that is disingenuous.
Also, if you watched the post race presser & looked at Mantz’s comments on Strava, the early pacing wasn’t ideal, he had to be the pacer for the second pack into the wind after 10k and got a little carried away, which cost him later. Now, is a marathon ever going to go absolutely perfectly? Of course not, and hopefully Mantz learns from this.
Rupp is still the GOAT from track to marathon, but let’s see how Mantz goes in his next couple and at the Olympic Marathon trials. Besides maybe Rupp, who else is his competition?
Sub is right. Rupp has run pool-table flat, cool weather marathons many times, ie. his first Chicago. 2 or 3 minutes slower than Connor. Rupp would have 5th or 6th American if he had run the same yesterday. The Chicago where Mo smoked him was good enough conditions for a big crowd to run fast, and finish in front of Rupp. Eugene was about as close to perfect as I could imagine. His perfectly chosen course, pacers, competitors, time of day, etc. for his HM AR attempt is another example of an excuse-less run. By the way, he missed Hall's time by a mile. Maybe he should have worn the apparently faster asics Hyperspeed.
Low hopes for you as someone I will ever take seriously. Low B grade post you typed up. There are infinitly many ways to train: look at the woman who won London. She was racing 10,000s over the summer.
Hey man, I don’t subscribe to that religion, but I’d much rather give 10% to a church than tithe 40% of my income to governments that squander at least half of it. Because that’s what they do, misallocate it in the name of someone’s oppression while building their own personal, multi-milloinaire wealth.
Now let’s get back on topic about Mantz being a badass.
No professional runner gives 40% to the government. And giving money to a church doesn't mean you get to stop paying taxes, unless you give almost all of your income to the church.
I suppose Mantz could live in Park City year round at 7,000’ and drive down to Provo for workouts.
To drive from Park City to Provo is an hour drive as it is 45 miles away. That's when it isn't winter on a two lane road driving through a canyon. You could drive down to SLC as that is 32 miles away. Just a 40 minute drive. SLC and Provo are still 45 miles from each other but at least you can drive on I-15 and hope there is no traffic. It's not really that realistic to do when you factor in the weather, the commute, and the price of gas.
My last post, admittedly a bit flip, got deleted. But can we honestly allow this narrow-minded commentary about his form? Dude just had a killer debut and we're already focusing on perceived flaws?
What's narrow minded about it? I simply stated my opinion that Mantz is a 2:06 guy at best and I base that opinion largely around visible inefficiencies in his gait. That's not an insult nor any sort of personal bias against him.
I'll indulge you by going a bit deeper. If you have any coaching or kinesiology background it is readily apparent that Mantz uses far more energy to hold a pace than his fellow competitors, primarily East Africans, that exhibit impeccable mechanics. He is covering less ground with each stride and, if I had access to high-speed video analysis, I would also venture that he spends significantly more time on the ground as well. Multiply those small comparative losses by tens of thousands of strides and it adds up to minutes over the course of a marathon. There have been numerous studies that examined the stride length stride frequency, hip angles, and ground contact time of the best Africans vs. runners from everywhere else and each one notes that a huge part of African distance running success comes down to superior biomechanics. Mantz can certainly work to improve his form and to gain additional hip mobility, but it would take years to notch small improvements and any tweaks might lead to injury and missed racing/income opportunities during his short competitive window. Barring that, he would have to overcome his present stride hitches with a superior level of fitness. Is that even possible in a sport where victory and also ran status are a function of tiny incremental gains?
Speaking of training, others have rightfully pointed out that coaches like Canova, Rosa, and Sang have revolutionized marathon preparation. Mantz is still training in a traditional Western manner: a 10K program with some longer runs and tempo efforts to "extend" his range. This thinking is outdated. I will also posit that staying in Provo and working out with college kids is also going to limit his development. It is very difficult to make progress when you are clearly the best and most developed athlete in a training group. Who is pushing you? Who can stay with you on the marathon specific work? You are essentially training alone for a lot of important work. The camps in Africa and clubs like BTC provide an environment that is much more conducive to challenge and being pushed outside of your envelope. At the risk of being bashed for it, giving up 50+ training days a year due to religious convictions also puts you at a disadvantage. This plus the usual 1-2 week breaks after track or a marathon effectively means that you are only training nine months out of the year. No other elites are doing this. I respect the role of faith in people's lives, but if taking every Sunday and most Christian holidays off is your choice, then there are fitness limitations that come with that choice.
Grit and mental toughness are the most overrated cliche in sports! Do you think that Kipchoge is not tough? Does Benson Kipruto lack the will to win? Of course not. But having a slightly better ability to deal with pain in a marathon does not make you minutes faster than the men running with less effort next to you at 2:05 pace. Americans are too in love with the legend of Pre. Our media mythologizes jocks that play with the flu or soreness. We practically lionize athletes that play a game the day after a beloved relative dies. This notion has been completely oversold and leads to a ridiculous amount of fan boy hopefulness because their hero showed tenacity in college races. I personally like how Mantz raced at BYU, especially in XC, but that is like winning at the minor league level. It shows potential but isn't a guarantee of success at the next level against better competition. It is a different sport at the pro level and most pros from elsewhere are competing for far more than moderate fame, shoe contracts, and IG followers.
I will end with this. Connor Mantz has the potential to put together a fine career and to be regarded as a top US marathon runner. My advice to him would be to skip time trial/record attempt races like Chicago and Berlin and to focus on NYC, Boston, and championship races that are not pancake flat. His ability to grind and wear down opponents on tougher courses (like the OK State XC course) will serve him well. If he makes the team, I honestly think that he could surprise on the proposed hilly course in Paris. He does not have Ryan Hall's efficiency or Galen Rupp's track speed but he could elevate himself into American marathon lore by following a path closer to Meb's.
Bumping this pseudoscientific analysis of Mantz’s limits because it’s hilarious to read a couple years later
