How many humans have run sub-1:44 for 800 and sub 13:20 for 5000? Alan Webb, Ayanleh Souleiman and who else?

said88 wrote:

rojo wrote:

Very simple.

1) The moment I read this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=trackandfield&id=2336602

Aouita became dead to me. I believe he was a doper and thus should be ignored.

Because YOU believe he was a doper he should be ignored? The word "believe" also should get some special attention.

Yes I believe it. Aouita, unlike Geb unlike Paula, has a specific allegation made about him. Athletes that he coach said that he wanted them to dope.

So I have reason to believe it. WIth others, I have no reason to believe anything other than the fact they ran really fast.

crete wrote:

Al Geria wrote:

I think anyone who has managed sub 3:30 and sub 13 could do it.

so you would include Mo as a possibility?

Of course.

Aouita wanted them to dope because he realized they didn't have the raw goods to be truly world class. He needed no help himself.

said88 wrote:

Choge he has not done it by a wider margin, which you know, since I have told you (with the necessary stats) on several occasions before.

Aouita is faster over 800 by about 1 second.

Over 1500 they are nearly dead even.

Over 3000 Choge is faster by over 1 second.

Over 5000 Choge is faster by 5 seconds.

That's all the stats you need. Choge by a total of 5 seconds.

I can't find an 800m time for Daniel Komen, but 3:29 for 1500m suggests that he could have broken 1:44.

Shouldn't you know this. Im as old as you and I remember Said without looking it up. Embarassing.

rojo wrote:

said88 wrote:

Because YOU believe he was a doper he should be ignored? The word "believe" also should get some special attention.

Yes I believe it. Aouita, unlike Geb unlike Paula, has a specific allegation made about him. Athletes that he coach said that he wanted them to dope.

So I have reason to believe it. WIth others, I have no reason to believe anything other than the fact they ran really fast.

I think he probably was, sad to say as he was a hero of mine in my younger days, a fallen hero.

It would still be hard to convict him beyond a reasonable doubt.

The first thing is did the athlete/s have some gripe with him unrelated, maybe he replaced a more likable coach, maybe the girl saw him as favoring other athletes, maybe she wanted him and he rejected her (it happens) or there could be a million other reasons (that MAY have made the athlete/s vindictive).

Not saying this happened, I just would have preferred a full blown trial if it further damaged his reputation or it cleared his reputation so be it, let the chips fall where they may.

El G easily could have. He closed the Olympic 1500 in hhis 800 PR.

Rashid Ramzi just missed making the list

1-44.05 800m

13-10 5000m

most of the the top morrocan 800m have been busted ,their natural ceiling seems to be 1-45/1-46

for 1500m 3-32 natural ceiling

for 5000m 3 minute natural ceiling

corvee wrote:

I can't find an 800m time for Daniel Komen, but 3:29 for 1500m suggests that he could have broken 1:44.

No it does not.

I'm too sleepy to make this effort - it would be interesting to see those times weighted by their personal bests (or maybe world records? - which one makes more sense?) at each event. I saw your skills in the probability thread earlier... maybe you're the one to do it?

By the way, I think the list fastest came up with on the first page is really neat:

Bad Wigins wrote:

said88 wrote:

Choge he has not done it by a wider margin, which you know, since I have told you (with the necessary stats) on several occasions before.

Aouita is faster over 800 by about 1 second.

Over 1500 they are nearly dead even.

Over 3000 Choge is faster by over 1 second.

Over 5000 Choge is faster by 5 seconds.

That's all the stats you need. Choge by a total of 5 seconds.

OK, this explains a lot, B.W.^3.

Said88, what have you got against the great Augustine Choge... he does such amazing things and nobody pays any attention.

Surely when he runs a sub-27, THEN you will admit he is the GOAT from 800+.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Said88, what have you got against the great Augustine Choge... he does such amazing things and nobody pays any attention.

Surely when he runs a sub-27, THEN you will admit he is the GOAT from 800+.

I have something against Augustine Choge? It seems your reading comprehension and your mathematical/logical skills are on a par.

To clarifie: I have nothing against him, the opposite is true, I like watching him race (also I doesn't have often the opportunity to see races live). But clearly this isn't a reason to deny reality. If he runs a sub 27, then his PBs are better than Aouita's, that's for sure. But when looking at he time when they were achieved, Aouita would still get the nod (when he ran his 10000m he ran the first half wide on the first lane, easily worth something around 7 seconds, and was behind the WR 12,3 seconds). And he has had the WR over 1500m, 2000m, 3000m, 2 Miles and 5000m. Has won an Olympic bronze medal over 800m in very difficult circumstances for him (definitely could (should?) have won). Also has run a steeple of international quality. Still greatest track range so far, even with a sub 10000m for Choge. When will Choge do his 10000m debut?

rojo wrote:

said88 wrote:

Because YOU believe he was a doper he should be ignored? The word "believe" also should get some special attention.

Yes I believe it. Aouita, unlike Geb unlike Paula, has a specific allegation made about him. Athletes that he coach said that he wanted them to dope.

So I have reason to believe it. WIth others, I have no reason to believe anything other than the fact they ran really fast.

For sure you have all the rights to BELIEVE that he has taken illegal substances during his own career. And for sure there are some good arguments to back this up. But still far away from any proof. Maybe you should think about the meaning of the word "believe".

At least I now understand little bit better the deleting of some of my posts in the past in which I have put some effort to write them. Good posts with interesting stuff. But maybe you have believed they include some devil messages - so deleting them seemed to be a good solution.

But I can tell you: deleting the post of someone who put effort in doing the post and who has had no bad intention at all is not a good idea - the opposite is true.

When was Mariin Jones on anybodys clean list ?

Wasn't Yobeis Ondieke of Kenya the first man under 13:00 for 5 Km ?

rojo wrote:

How can you not wrote:

How can anyone who is a fan of running not immediately come up with Said Aouita?

Very simple.

1) The moment I read this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=trackandfield&id=2336602

Aouita became dead to me.

Sammy Wanjiru is dead.

Can't you still consider him one of the best marathoners ever?

fastest wrote:

Here are the people who can say that no one else was faster than them in both the 800m and 5000m :

Couldn't find any 800m PRs for people faster than 12:49

Brahim Lahlafi 1:45.44 12:49.28

Augustine Choge 1:44.86 12:53.66

Said Aouita 1:43.86 12:58.39

Alan Webb 1:43.84 13:10.86

Ayanleh Souleiman 1:43.63 13:17.97

Steve Cram 1:42.88 13:28.58

Couldn't find 5000m PRs for people faster than 1:42.88

Bekele and Rudisha can say the same