Why Shalane and other Top US distance runners don't win

Yes, I think you're at least partly right, but if you put the African runners in the same business/cultural situation as American runners, they would have the same problems. It's a difference of culture. When cultures in Africa have the same business/media situation then their runners performances will suffer as well. In other words, it's much harder to live a simple lifestyle in the States than it is in Africa.

The modernization of America is our worst enemy in distance running.

Gathering from your post and others, you would think American mid- and long-distance runners are nationally known. What percent of Americans do you think know or recognize Galen Rupp or Shalane? It is true that top American's have more obligations compared to top Africans but you are mistaken that this difference manifests on race day. You think if Shalane is not running as fast as her legs can carry her because of obligations?

Very true i live in Kenya, Mombasa and on one gives a shit about running in Mombasa everyone just loves soccer its only in the highlands such as Rift Valley , Iten that running is popular and done a lot otherwise its just soccer.

Kimetto said in a post-race interview that a big influence in him working so hard was the need to help his family and community. A win in Berlin transforms his and his families life forever, and a poor result means further hardship.

Contrast Kimetto's situation to that of a typical western athlete. Sure most pro runners don't make a fortune compared to other sports, but they are comfortable. They know that a lack of a win isn't going to make them or their families destitute. When you're in a whole world of hurt at mile 20, this makes a big big difference. The African incentives to perform are that much stronger. That's why, when two comparable African/Western athletes race together, 99% of the time, the African will win.

I do believe runners from Kenya,Ethiopia,have a wee bit more at stake,ie; socio-economic-- If they should lose,,it might very well be back to the village to farm- with very little prospect of a decent wage...motivation works wonders [perspective is important]

Americans are rewarded for mediocrity. East Africans have to be good.

Take the WR for men 2:02:57. An American that runs 4 minutes slower is a hero. Sub 2:07 American would be a Rock Star. A 2:07 East African is a no name.

Same is true on the womens side. Even if I throw out the Radcliffe 2:15. The next best womens mark is 2:17. 4 minutes slower than that is SHALANE. She is a Rock Star in the U.S. A 2:21 East African is just another nameless face in the crowd.

very very true totally agree with you.

Taper Method wrote:

I like the theory that African athletes do not have to taper as much before a race. The taper freshens up a Caucasian athlete but their fitness always slips.

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Former marathoner Steve Spence did not taper. In fact, he began doing squats of high weight about 4 weeks before a marathon, and only tapered down about 10%, if that on race week, but no taper prior to that.

Neel wrote:

true i think your right

I think your right what is what?

because they aren't born in the Rift Valley

Martahonme wrote:

Taper Method wrote:

I like the theory that African athletes do not have to taper as much before a race. The taper freshens up a Caucasian athlete but their fitness always slips.

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Former marathoner Steve Spence did not taper. In fact, he began doing squats of high weight about 4 weeks before a marathon, and only tapered down about 10%, if that on race week, but no taper prior to that.

Got that from Gelindo Bordin.

old timer... wrote:

Martahonme wrote:

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Former marathoner Steve Spence did not taper. In fact, he began doing squats of high weight about 4 weeks before a marathon, and only tapered down about 10%, if that on race week, but no taper prior to that.

Got that from Gelindo Bordin.

Oh yes . Gelindo , maybe the most doped Italian athlete of all time !

Italian distance runners are the equivalent of Jamaican sprinters. Nuff said...

You are another example of how many idiots "shot" stupid calumnies without knowing anything.

Gelindo Bordin Always refused ANY supplement, not only any drug. One time, in Tirrenia, he had strong headache, I gave him a specific tablet against headache, and he refused, telling "I want to see who wins between myself and my headache" (this only for explaining his mentality).

And, for your info, his blood value before winning Olympics in Seoul were : 12.8 Hg, 39.8 Hct.

This is one of the reason because I don't believe in the effects of doping, but I believe in the effects of training.

I have too many examples of top athletes winning or bettering records with very low values (in any case, lower than two months before) showing that the normal trend athletes have with proper training is :

1. With training, they run faster

2. When they are able running faster, their blood values are lower than before.

The same happens with the best kenyan training with me, or advised by me. Improving the shape, their values go down.

This is what happens REALLY, other things are the product of little knowledge of training methodology, creating wrong mentality (replacing training with drugs).

It's a fact that coaches able to achieve years ago good results with athletes using doping (as happened in many Countries), now are no more able to produce any good athlete, because their main point was not a correct training methodology, but a "fake" methodology, poisoned by doping. Without any external support, they don't know HOW and HOW MUCH it's possible to grow under the aerobic point of view in order to prepare top performances.

And you idiots think every result depends on doping !

Renato,

If you may, one point at a time: the stable of 'disposable' Kenyans available versus the 'precious few' in the west.

Do you or do you not agree that economics is a huge determining factor between the western camps' training approach and the Kenyan situation that foreign coaches and managers can exploit? I.e., it's easy to preach hard, intense training when there is a whole host of athletes in the camps, to choose from without having to make a huge up-front investment. Conversely, tremendous resources have already been invested in the relatively fewer western athletes that make it to the level of the top camps. There is less incentive to take risks with the athlete's health, with fewer eggs to throw at the wall to see which ones don't break.

LDNrunner. wrote:

Kimetto said in a post-race interview that a big influence in him working so hard was the need to help his family and community. A win in Berlin transforms his and his families life forever, and a poor result means further hardship.

Contrast Kimetto's situation to that of a typical western athlete. Sure most pro runners don't make a fortune compared to other sports, but they are comfortable. They know that a lack of a win isn't going to make them or their families destitute. When you're in a whole world of hurt at mile 20, this makes a big big difference. The African incentives to perform are that much stronger. That's why, when two comparable African/Western athletes race together, 99% of the time, the African will win.

Let me get this straight. Kimetto goes from no history of organized running to 2:02:57 guy in 4 years, and you think this has to do with desire?

Our American athletes' desire is just fine. Rupp and Salazar do everything possible. Webb seemed to live and die with his performances. Ritz just seems to run himself into the ground from desire. Actually, you know who seems pretty chill? 39-year old Bernard Lagat, who only trains 11 months per year, 6 days per week, 1 session per day.

This has nothing to do with desire. It's a difference in basic human physiology. Open your eyes to see the obvious truth in front of you.

The average qualities of kenyan and etiopian runners are superior of the average qualities of European and American people. But, when we speak about the qualities of the best in the world, we can find some ecception also in western Countries.

In the period 1983-1990, Italian middle distance runners were at the top of the World. In 1987, Panetta won WCh in steeple in 8'08" celebrating in the last furlong (and losing not less than 2-3 seconds) after pacing the race from the start, destroying everybody on the pac.

Salvatore Antibo won European Championships 1990 in 10000m running all the race alone, after a first lap in 59" for not having problems, pushing the first 5 km only, and after becoming spectator of the fight for silver medal, 200m nehind him, and 4 days later (after a heat) won 5000m after falling down at the start, losing one shoe, wasting 15" for wearing his shoe again, and running the first km unde 2'30" for reaching the Group.

This Panetta, and this Antibo, could be competitive TODAY with the best kenyan-ethiopian for a Gold medal in WCh or Olympics.

The real problem is that there is no more interest, in Western Countries, for middle and long distances, BECAUSE THEY NEED FATIGUE, and the trend of the most "civilized Countries" is to improve the quality of life cancelling the concept of fatigue.

So, if there is some genetic difference, this can't explain so big difference in performing. The most important factor is : THEY ARE HUNGRY. They know sufference from their normal life, and their threshold of pain is higher than the threshold of western people. They know possible to change their life running fast, and everybody tries, while in Europe very few people try, and normally inside mental limits, because they don't know the history of past european Champions.

I had, 4 years ago, a clinic in Portugal, speaking about training for 10000m with Portuguese coaches. The most part of them told me "it's not possible to compete with African runners". I asked them "Which is the best seasonal time of a Portuguese this year ?", and they answered "28'56"".

So, I told them : "Do you know that in this Country, 25 years ago, you had two PORTUGUESE runners, Fernando Mamede and Carlos Lopes, able to run like the African of today (and many times defeating them, since Lopes won Olympics), who ran 27'12" and 27'17", that means more than 600m ahead the best Portuguese of today ? So, the real question is not that African are too strong, is that we European are no longer able to produce runner at the same level of 25 years ago".

In European Championships 1978 (Prague, 36 years ago !), the athlete number 9 in the race of 10000m (Kvalheim from Norway) ran 27'41", all European without any African.

This year, Mo Farah won with 28'08", and the number 9 was another athlete from Norway (Moen), but in 28'50" (with one Kenyan and one Ethiopian naturalized in the middle).

So, also if there are several reasons, the most important is this one : FOR BEING AT THE BEST IN EVENTS OF FATIGUE, YOU NEED TO BE HUNGRY AND TO HAVE A HIGH PAIN THRESHOLD, two situations no more common in western Countries.

Sure, Western athletes have the desire to win, but when it's crunch time, 24miles into a race and you're hurting beyond hurt, the African athletes have more at stake, and I think this counts for a lot at those key moments in a race when it's do or die.

Faced with the prospect of returning to a life of struggle for them and their families, vs their Western counterparts with their support system around them, I think this makes a significant difference in the mindset and determination of the athletes.

If Ritz drops off the lead pack at mile 23, he can return to his comfortable home and shoe contract. Things are not so certain for the African runners. They NEED to perform, to secure their and their families future. And a marathon win transforms their lives much more than the same win for a Western runner.

Hard work and training will take Western runners a long way, but they just don't have as strong incentives to win as the Africans.