I suppose you'll still be chasing after the Africans there too, but maybe you'll have a better chance? Maybe?
Watch an international track 800m - 5000m, where you will find a much more mixed batch of athletes. The roads are completely dominated by Africa, especially in the male world marathon majors.
My last post, admittedly a bit flip, got deleted. But can we honestly allow this narrow-minded commentary about his form? Dude just had a killer debut and we're already focusing on perceived flaws?
What's narrow minded about it? I simply stated my opinion that Mantz is a 2:06 guy at best and I base that opinion largely around visible inefficiencies in his gait. That's not an insult nor any sort of personal bias against him.
I'll indulge you by going a bit deeper. If you have any coaching or kinesiology background it is readily apparent that Mantz uses far more energy to hold a pace than his fellow competitors, primarily East Africans, that exhibit impeccable mechanics. He is covering less ground with each stride and, if I had access to high-speed video analysis, I would also venture that he spends significantly more time on the ground as well. Multiply those small comparative losses by tens of thousands of strides and it adds up to minutes over the course of a marathon. There have been numerous studies that examined the stride length stride frequency, hip angles, and ground contact time of the best Africans vs. runners from everywhere else and each one notes that a huge part of African distance running success comes down to superior biomechanics. Mantz can certainly work to improve his form and to gain additional hip mobility, but it would take years to notch small improvements and any tweaks might lead to injury and missed racing/income opportunities during his short competitive window. Barring that, he would have to overcome his present stride hitches with a superior level of fitness. Is that even possible in a sport where victory and also ran status are a function of tiny incremental gains?
Speaking of training, others have rightfully pointed out that coaches like Canova, Rosa, and Sang have revolutionized marathon preparation. Mantz is still training in a traditional Western manner: a 10K program with some longer runs and tempo efforts to "extend" his range. This thinking is outdated. I will also posit that staying in Provo and working out with college kids is also going to limit his development. It is very difficult to make progress when you are clearly the best and most developed athlete in a training group. Who is pushing you? Who can stay with you on the marathon specific work? You are essentially training alone for a lot of important work. The camps in Africa and clubs like BTC provide an environment that is much more conducive to challenge and being pushed outside of your envelope. At the risk of being bashed for it, giving up 50+ training days a year due to religious convictions also puts you at a disadvantage. This plus the usual 1-2 week breaks after track or a marathon effectively means that you are only training nine months out of the year. No other elites are doing this. I respect the role of faith in people's lives, but if taking every Sunday and most Christian holidays off is your choice, then there are fitness limitations that come with that choice.
Grit and mental toughness are the most overrated cliche in sports! Do you think that Kipchoge is not tough? Does Benson Kipruto lack the will to win? Of course not. But having a slightly better ability to deal with pain in a marathon does not make you minutes faster than the men running with less effort next to you at 2:05 pace. Americans are too in love with the legend of Pre. Our media mythologizes jocks that play with the flu or soreness. We practically lionize athletes that play a game the day after a beloved relative dies. This notion has been completely oversold and leads to a ridiculous amount of fan boy hopefulness because their hero showed tenacity in college races. I personally like how Mantz raced at BYU, especially in XC, but that is like winning at the minor league level. It shows potential but isn't a guarantee of success at the next level against better competition. It is a different sport at the pro level and most pros from elsewhere are competing for far more than moderate fame, shoe contracts, and IG followers.
I will end with this. Connor Mantz has the potential to put together a fine career and to be regarded as a top US marathon runner. My advice to him would be to skip time trial/record attempt races like Chicago and Berlin and to focus on NYC, Boston, and championship races that are not pancake flat. His ability to grind and wear down opponents on tougher courses (like the OK State XC course) will serve him well. If he makes the team, I honestly think that he could surprise on the proposed hilly course in Paris. He does not have Ryan Hall's efficiency or Galen Rupp's track speed but he could elevate himself into American marathon lore by following a path closer to Meb's.
That all sounds very intelligent and interesting, but as far as his mechanics are concerned, I just don't buy it.
Does he have as fine-tuned a stride as Kipchoge? Probably not. Doesn't appear so to my untrained eye.
But if he stays healthy and keeps grinding and focusing on the marathon (big ifs, I'm aware...) then I suspect his stride will gradually adhere more and more to the needs of the event.
So there's perhaps a couple minute improvement right there, based on your theory of his current inefficiency.
I suspect he also has room to improve the other factors that matter physiologically in the marathon, to say nothing of gaining experience and a mental edge.
Note I'm not saying he's "tougher" than everyone else.
Just find it funny how we should think the first American to debut this fast, and this young, in ages should only he able to chop two minutes off his time over the course of his whole career.
Suppose, too, he starts training seven days a week -- or with better marathoners. I think this guy could be like a Bill Rodgers of our time (granted, probably won't race as much as him).
So excuse me for objecting to what I regard as an overanalyzed slight of a bright and rising talent
I suppose you'll still be chasing after the Africans there too, but maybe you'll have a better chance? Maybe?
Watch an international track 800m - 5000m, where you will find a much more mixed batch of athletes. The roads are completely dominated by Africa, especially in the male world marathon majors.
Yeah, that's why I was saying "maybe." I was just trying to be a little positive or whatever.
We're probably never going to have an American male (or group of American men) that can compete for podiums at the World Marathon Majors on a consistent basis. It's just not something that we're good at, we don't have a big enough talent pool. We have three or four that are good, and obviously Kenya and Ethiopia have a few dozen it seems.
That said, it'll be curious to see where Connor Mantz places in his next marathon. If he runs Boston (or even London or Berlin) next year and gets a top 10 finish, then that could be noteworthy -- 2:09 or 2:10 in London would would have been top 10 this year, not so much in Berlin, though.
As was mentioned, Boston or New York may be his best bets to do well. Flat-out speed won't factor in as much there.
My last post, admittedly a bit flip, got deleted. But can we honestly allow this narrow-minded commentary about his form? Dude just had a killer debut and we're already focusing on perceived flaws?
What's narrow minded about it? I simply stated my opinion that Mantz is a 2:06 guy at best and I base that opinion largely around visible inefficiencies in his gait. That's not an insult nor any sort of personal bias against him.
I'll indulge you by going a bit deeper. If you have any coaching or kinesiology background it is readily apparent that Mantz uses far more energy to hold a pace than his fellow competitors, primarily East Africans, that exhibit impeccable mechanics. He is covering less ground with each stride and, if I had access to high-speed video analysis, I would also venture that he spends significantly more time on the ground as well. Multiply those small comparative losses by tens of thousands of strides and it adds up to minutes over the course of a marathon. There have been numerous studies that examined the stride length stride frequency, hip angles, and ground contact time of the best Africans vs. runners from everywhere else and each one notes that a huge part of African distance running success comes down to superior biomechanics. Mantz can certainly work to improve his form and to gain additional hip mobility, but it would take years to notch small improvements and any tweaks might lead to injury and missed racing/income opportunities during his short competitive window. Barring that, he would have to overcome his present stride hitches with a superior level of fitness. Is that even possible in a sport where victory and also ran status are a function of tiny incremental gains?
Speaking of training, others have rightfully pointed out that coaches like Canova, Rosa, and Sang have revolutionized marathon preparation. Mantz is still training in a traditional Western manner: a 10K program with some longer runs and tempo efforts to "extend" his range. This thinking is outdated. I will also posit that staying in Provo and working out with college kids is also going to limit his development. It is very difficult to make progress when you are clearly the best and most developed athlete in a training group. Who is pushing you? Who can stay with you on the marathon specific work? You are essentially training alone for a lot of important work. The camps in Africa and clubs like BTC provide an environment that is much more conducive to challenge and being pushed outside of your envelope. At the risk of being bashed for it, giving up 50+ training days a year due to religious convictions also puts you at a disadvantage. This plus the usual 1-2 week breaks after track or a marathon effectively means that you are only training nine months out of the year. No other elites are doing this. I respect the role of faith in people's lives, but if taking every Sunday and most Christian holidays off is your choice, then there are fitness limitations that come with that choice.
Grit and mental toughness are the most overrated cliche in sports! Do you think that Kipchoge is not tough? Does Benson Kipruto lack the will to win? Of course not. But having a slightly better ability to deal with pain in a marathon does not make you minutes faster than the men running with less effort next to you at 2:05 pace. Americans are too in love with the legend of Pre. Our media mythologizes jocks that play with the flu or soreness. We practically lionize athletes that play a game the day after a beloved relative dies. This notion has been completely oversold and leads to a ridiculous amount of fan boy hopefulness because their hero showed tenacity in college races. I personally like how Mantz raced at BYU, especially in XC, but that is like winning at the minor league level. It shows potential but isn't a guarantee of success at the next level against better competition. It is a different sport at the pro level and most pros from elsewhere are competing for far more than moderate fame, shoe contracts, and IG followers.
I will end with this. Connor Mantz has the potential to put together a fine career and to be regarded as a top US marathon runner. My advice to him would be to skip time trial/record attempt races like Chicago and Berlin and to focus on NYC, Boston, and championship races that are not pancake flat. His ability to grind and wear down opponents on tougher courses (like the OK State XC course) will serve him well. If he makes the team, I honestly think that he could surprise on the proposed hilly course in Paris. He does not have Ryan Hall's efficiency or Galen Rupp's track speed but he could elevate himself into American marathon lore by following a path closer to Meb's.
Yeah, good post. You may be right that the ceiling for Mantz is 2:06 or maybe high 2:05 given that he’s more of a grinder than an efficient machine. Perhaps he can make the biomechanical tweaks you are suggesting. And the consensus seems to be that he didn’t do optimal, classical marathon training like the Africans. Perhaps this is something he can improve.
I’m not sure I agree that he needs to focus 100% on the marathon yet. He said he still has fish to fry on the track, wants a sub-13:00 5000. I personally have my doubts he can run that fast, but if he gets close, say 13:03, and his 10,000 is close to 27:00, I’d say he has the chops to be a great marathoner. I don’t see the need for him to shift away from the track yet, but, perhaps he needs to end his track season sooner to allow for an optimal marathon build.
I take your point about not running Sundays and giving a lot of training days away to your competitors. But if Saturday is going to be a really long, really hard run in the morning, the extra day of recovery doesn’t hurt imo.
Lastly, I suspect that had this kid run 2:07:59, a mere 17 seconds faster, it would’ve been a much more warmly received debut. His real goal was the 2:07:56 and he was only 21 seconds away. I think that’s pretty damn good. No way was he going to run 2:06 or 2:05 in his debut as some had predicted. But, perhaps his focus should be a NYC like you said.
I would add that I think it’s difficult to do the real pace training when up at 4,500’. It’s not so much the group dynamic, though that may help or hurt, but it’s just hard to gauge where you are truly at and then recover properly like at sea level. Provo is probably 5 seconds per mile slower than a sea level effort. I think the live high, train low concept works pretty well.
Yeah, good post. You may be right that the ceiling for Mantz is 2:06 or maybe high 2:05 given that he’s more of a grinder than an efficient machine. Perhaps he can make the biomechanical tweaks you are suggesting. And the consensus seems to be that he didn’t do optimal, classical marathon training like the Africans. Perhaps this is something he can improve.
I’m not sure I agree that he needs to focus 100% on the marathon yet. He said he still has fish to fry on the track, wants a sub-13:00 5000. I personally have my doubts he can run that fast, but if he gets close, say 13:03, and his 10,000 is close to 27:00, I’d say he has the chops to be a great marathoner. I don’t see the need for him to shift away from the track yet, but, perhaps he needs to end his track season sooner to allow for an optimal marathon build.
I take your point about not running Sundays and giving a lot of training days away to your competitors. But if Saturday is going to be a really long, really hard run in the morning, the extra day of recovery doesn’t hurt imo.
Lastly, I suspect that had this kid run 2:07:59, a mere 17 seconds faster, it would’ve been a much more warmly received debut. His real goal was the 2:07:56 and he was only 21 seconds away. I think that’s pretty damn good. No way was he going to run 2:06 or 2:05 in his debut as some had predicted. But, perhaps his focus should be a NYC like you said.
He still wants to go back to the track? I assume he would only be doing that for personal satisfaction or whatever?
Well, it's his life, it's his career.
I would add that I think it’s difficult to do the real pace training when up at 4,500’. It’s not so much the group dynamic, though that may help or hurt, but it’s just hard to gauge where you are truly at and then recover properly like at sea level. Provo is probably 5 seconds per mile slower than a sea level effort. I think the live high, train low concept works pretty well.
I've wondered about that...
The Kenyans do "live high, train high," don't they? At least Eliud Kipchoge and his NN Running Team do, don't they?
If so, if I were Conner Mantz, I would spend the rest of my 20s doing that. And if that doesn't work, then in my 30s do the "live high, train low" thing. And of course that's the beauty of starting the marathon at the relatively young age of 25, you can experiment for a few years.
I half-joke when I say this, but he's a white guy born in Utah. So he probably shouldn't worry about speed that much anyway, because he's only going to be so fast. 😁
No, get that strength up to tackle Boston and New York. Leave Berlin and places like that to the Africans, because he's never going to be as fast as them.
Nice thread! A lot of good discussion. I agree with the gist of the OP, most posters, and Coach E in that it was great. I just don't think minutes faster was ever going to, or supposed to happen.
My question is: where is the info on his training? I don't use Strava. Is that where some of you see it?
I am in complete agreement that many runners are probably training optimally for the event, especially during the last decade. And that Canova is the most reaponsible for this although others contributed. And more importantly, that Americans traditionally have not trained ideally for the marathon although they may for shorter events. And most importantly, that many US-based runners still train like so many did in the 20th century.
So is this guy basically training for a 10k but adding long (comparitively) slow runs, or maybe modifying that and ending up with something close to ideal for a half? Or is it truly marathon-specific? Is there a schedule somebody could post?
If he can’t run 2:06 on that course, in those ideal conditions, and with bouncy shoes then forget about it. 25 is not young in the thon anymore. Won’t be surprised if he never breaks 2:08.
Yep. Too bad it’s barely a 2:12 without the shoes. Inflated time strikes again. Thanks nike. Here comes the downvotes.
Yeah, good post. You may be right that the ceiling for Mantz is 2:06 or maybe high 2:05 given that he’s more of a grinder than an efficient machine. Perhaps he can make the biomechanical tweaks you are suggesting. And the consensus seems to be that he didn’t do optimal, classical marathon training like the Africans. Perhaps this is something he can improve.
I’m not sure I agree that he needs to focus 100% on the marathon yet. He said he still has fish to fry on the track, wants a sub-13:00 5000. I personally have my doubts he can run that fast, but if he gets close, say 13:03, and his 10,000 is close to 27:00, I’d say he has the chops to be a great marathoner. I don’t see the need for him to shift away from the track yet, but, perhaps he needs to end his track season sooner to allow for an optimal marathon build.
I take your point about not running Sundays and giving a lot of training days away to your competitors. But if Saturday is going to be a really long, really hard run in the morning, the extra day of recovery doesn’t hurt imo.
Lastly, I suspect that had this kid run 2:07:59, a mere 17 seconds faster, it would’ve been a much more warmly received debut. His real goal was the 2:07:56 and he was only 21 seconds away. I think that’s pretty damn good. No way was he going to run 2:06 or 2:05 in his debut as some had predicted. But, perhaps his focus should be a NYC like you said.
He still wants to go back to the track? I assume he would only be doing that for personal satisfaction or whatever?
Well, it's his life, it's his career.
I would add that I think it’s difficult to do the real pace training when up at 4,500’. It’s not so much the group dynamic, though that may help or hurt, but it’s just hard to gauge where you are truly at and then recover properly like at sea level. Provo is probably 5 seconds per mile slower than a sea level effort. I think the live high, train low concept works pretty well.
I've wondered about that...
The Kenyans do "live high, train high," don't they? At least Eliud Kipchoge and his NN Running Team do, don't they?
If so, if I were Conner Mantz, I would spend the rest of my 20s doing that. And if that doesn't work, then in my 30s do the "live high, train low" thing. And of course that's the beauty of starting the marathon at the relatively young age of 25, you can experiment for a few years.
I half-joke when I say this, but he's a white guy born in Utah. So he probably shouldn't worry about speed that much anyway, because he's only going to be so fast. 😁
No, get that strength up to tackle Boston and New York. Leave Berlin and places like that to the Africans, because he's never going to be as fast as them.
Yeah he specifically stated in an interview posted here that he wants to try to go sub-13:00 on the track, that his PR was run in sub-optimal conditions (very hot). I still think there’s room for him to race xc and track and do one marathon per year.
I just think it’s easier to gauge training pace at sea level (where most races are run) and recover better too. But good point about the Kenyans. I suppose Mantz could live in Park City year round at 7,000’ and drive down to Provo for workouts.
The consensus here is that Mantz’s training wasn’t ideal, not enough long, hard tempos and not long enough marathon pace stuff. If that’s true, then he has room right there to improve, yes?
It took Rupp six tries to run faster in the marathon.
And it seems to me that at this moment Conner is the best active US marathon runner on the men's side. And since he actually races more than twice a year, maybe we'll see another attempt.
It was a really excellent first crack at a marathon for Mantz. Pretty much inline with many of thought he was capable of.
I must agree with comments about his form (running economy) and his top speed. He needs both to become elite at world level. His form would be the easiest to fix, but some just can’t change it, like Mo. He just never seemed to change his long, loping stride and heavy arm use. Fine on the track but no good for a marathon.
Top speed is the main issue. Many marathoners, including Rupp, had more top speed when they started racing the marathon. Rupp ran 3:50 indoors, not to mention his 26:44 10k. Kipchoge had already mostly maxed out his track speed.
I think Mantz can improve both, so I hope he doesn’t completely give up on developing his speed. Strength and endurance can only take you so far in elite marathoning. I hope Mantz continues to improve and map out a long term effort where he will be at his peak.
Yeah he specifically stated in an interview posted here that he wants to try to go sub-13:00 on the track, that his PR was run in sub-optimal conditions (very hot).
I still think there’s room for him to race xc and track and do one marathon per year. I just think it’s easier to gauge training pace at sea level (where most races are run) and recover better too. But good point about the Kenyans. I suppose Mantz could live in Park City year round at 7,000’ and drive down to Provo for workouts.
The consensus here is that Mantz’s training wasn’t ideal, not enough long, hard tempos and not long enough marathon pace stuff. If that’s true, then he has room right there to improve, yes?
One thing on training at altitude:
During Chicago I believe one of the commentators said that Emily Sisson initially trained at altitude but it wasn't working well for her, so she went back to sea-level for her training.
An American record later I guess it worked out for her.
(I believe she may have talked about it on her Instagram; she did mention it briefly last month in a quick Citius Mag interview.)
Of course, an American record is great if you're only running against Americans.
As for Connor, yeah, we see a sampling of his speed on a fast course.
Near perfect conditions and he did a 2:08.
Say in the next 10 years he can take three minutes off of that. Maybe four. And of course he's not going to take 4 minutes off of that (Kipchoge did 2:04 at his first Berlin in 2013, and of course 2:01 this year, 9 years laters), but just for arguments sake say through the course of his career Connor can knock four minutes off of what he did in Chicago...
2:04 is on the podium on the fast courses today, but that of course assumes no one else gets faster in the next 10 years.
So yeah, he can of course improve, no question there. But it all comes down to what marathons he decides to run, and why.
If all he wants are PBs and maybe an American record, then he can of course run anywhere he likes.
If he actually wants a chance to win though, then what, Boston, New York, and Tokyo maybe (although Tokyo may be too fast too)? And when and if the World Marathon Majors expand to seven and chooses China's Chengdu Marathon (because the Wanda Group probably wants it there), then I suppose he could do well there too.
Although I honestly don't know much about about that course -- I believe in 2019 2:09 won, so going from that (of course that time will undoubtedly drop if it becomes a World Marathon Major)...
But yep, let's see what he does at Boston or New York, then we'll know more. Because we already know where he can't win (or at least has very little to next to no chance of winning), but let's see where maybe he at least has a shot.
I'm going to look back and see how Ghirmay Ghebreslassie won the World Championships at 19 in 2015, and then the New York City Marathon at 20 in 2016.
If he can’t run 2:06 on that course, in those ideal conditions, and with bouncy shoes then forget about it. 25 is not young in the thon anymore. Won’t be surprised if he never breaks 2:08.
Congratulations and that's very good for his debut. Wish I could've seen it live as I wait for recording. As a marathon sporting fan. I have to scramble to view major marathon events live. While other sports like bowling and corn hole etc is featured on ESPN. Running will grow when it has better sponsors. Run sponsors are keeping their pockets fat by making the fans pay for viewing and not airing marathon majors live on major sports networks. That's why the sport of running isn't growing. We need better sponsors that aren't trying to make us pay for viewing. Football viewing no problem...marathon viewing...it's a scavenger hunt to see it live. Congratulations to all the outstanding marathon athletes that we didn't get to witness on a major television network today. SMH.
Yes and you also have to consider how much more difficult it is to cover a marathon.
We would have needed two more of those moto things:
two for the men and two for the women.
One each for the lead pack (runner) and one each for the chase pack (or Conner and Emily).
They didn't even show Conner finish! That was just a dumb move.
They have to keep a camera on the finish line ready to see everyone of the top runners cross the line.
