Is this what Mo Farah needed to start assaulting WRs?

Too much doping in 90s and early 2000s.

Those 5k-10k records are out of reach.

It has been hypothesized that microdosing (current doping strategy) is more effective across the marathon.

http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/why-mens-marathon-times-get-faster-while-5k10k-times-have-stalled

Ajay,

you can make up whatever fantasy numbers you want. I prefer to live in a fact-based world. Here are some facts:

Mo Farah has a 5000m PR of 12:53. That race is from July 2011 (5 years ago)

He has a 10000m PR of 26:46. That race is from Jun 2011.

His recent PR is in the 3000. That PR is 7:34 from July 2015.

He has a recent PR in the two mile of 8:07 in Aug 2014.

None of those PRs is anywhere near the world record in those events.

He made a large leap in PRs when he began training with Alberto Salazar in 2011. That made him a large outlier, to make a big leap at the age of 28 after he had already been training as a full time professional for many years.

He is 33 years old. People don't just naturally improve from 28 to 33. At best they maintain. Most are trying hard to fight off decline. Indeed, by running about as fast at 32 as he did at 28 Mo Farah has already defying the trend. If he made another big leap between 28 and 33, well, that would be a Bondian improvement curve.

Alberto Salazar is a good coach and has done wonders helping Mo Farah develop into a great championship style racer (by developing his speed). He is not a coach who has proven that he has some sort of magic recipe which would lead to continuous improvement for all of his athletes and that they will automatically get better the longer he is with them. Indeed the only athlete who has followed that pattern has been Galen Rupp. Quite a few others have had up and down paths, with PRs shortly after joining him. Dathan Ritzenheim ran his PRs at 5000 and 10000 and ran his best Half Marathon within a few months after joining Salazar and has not improved on them since (although he did improve his marathon).

You seem to have little regard for the world records and those who hold them. You continuously claim how weak they are and how so many people could break them. Year after year after year. This is particularly so with the 3000m and 10000m runs. Yet the 3000m is the second oldest track world record on the books in a frequently run event. Mo's best time is fourteen seconds slower. Nobody routinely comes close to breaking it. The 10000 was set by one of the best distance runners in history. Nobody comes close to breaking it on a routine basis. Perhaps you should have a little more regard for the records and the men that ran them. It is apparently harder to break them than you imagine.

Of just go diddle your calculator some more, ajay.

It's impossible to put hard numbers on it (unless you are Ventolin) but its clear that Farah's capabilities at 5 and 10k far exceed his PRs. How often has he beaten fields of Kenyans and Ethiopians with better PRs in tactical races? If his competitors thought they could break away with a hard pace they would try it. They don't because they know he's strong enough to draft on them until the last few laps and then go around them.

My guess is that he could have challenged WR's in his prime if he'd chosen to train to do so but we'll likely never know because Salazar's training has so emphasised 1500m speed--with great results: Farah may be the best ever at tactical 5/10k. What would be the ultimate tactical matchups? Farah vs El G. at 5k and Farah vs Bekele at 10k? Does Geb belong in there somewhere?

Well, I do think that Farah was capable of somewhat better in a better race setup. I'm not sure that his capabilities FAR exceed his PRs. Maybe that's quibbling and we don't want to get caught up on one word, as I think I can agree on the premise without arguing about the details.

Farah has beaten guys with better PRs, but none of those guys were challenging the world records, either.

Could he have challenged world records in his prime (or even now) if he made that his top priority? I don't know. He is already an outlier by improving so much at the relatively advanced age of 28. I have a hard time seeing him improving by that much more again. From all outward signs it was not important to Mo Farah to see how fast he could run.

I think Farah vs. El G at 5000 would be a great race. I think Bekele at his best was both faster and had a better kick over 5000m, so I don't think that one would be all that compelling.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Farah has beaten guys with better PRs, but none of those guys were challenging the world records, either.

Fair enough, and I personally doubt that Farah as currently trained can challenge the WRs. I just think that his "true PRs" are more in line with the best of the people he's beating in tactical racing. If he had done strength work with Salazar instead of the 1500m training, then maybe he'd be closer to WRs. Who knows.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

He is already an outlier by improving so much at the relatively advanced age of 28.

That's whole different thread.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

I think Farah vs. El G at 5000 would be a great race. I think Bekele at his best was both faster and had a better kick over 5000m, so I don't think that one would be all that compelling.

Do you mean you'd take Bekele over Farah at 10,000m? El G. proved to be a better kicker than Bekele off of a slow 5000m pace.

Mo is a 1500/5000 athlete. That's why he excels at championship style 5000/10000 races where everyone jogs but the last three laps.

He is national class at best at the Half and he really sucks at the full.

These are the facts.

Nutella1 wrote:

Mo is a 1500/5000 athlete. That's why he excels at championship style 5000/10000 races where everyone jogs but the last three laps.

He is national class at best at the Half and he really sucks at the full.

These are the facts.

not really

59:32 HM national class? Many lols.

I don't know. He got faster under Salazar as well as developing a devastating kick, so whatever his training has consisted of, it worked on his endurance as well as his speed. I guess if you posted that he might have been capable of something like 3'28", 7'27", 12'46" and maybe 26'38", well I don't see anything particularly outrageous about those numbers. I just don't know where he would get that much extra above those, though. Speculation-land, so you can have your opinion and I can have mine.

Sort of. Speculating that he would be near the world records would have required a big upgrade from where he actually reached. He already had one big upgrade. I'm not sure where another would come from. Perhaps if he had done that training and made that leap at a younger age. I'm not one to throw around doping suspicions, because I don't know. I just think we have to look at the general trend for runners around his age before assuming that with some other sort of training he might have made another leap.

I would take Bekele over Farah at 10000m I wrote 5000m, which was not what I meant.

larkimm wrote:

59:32 HM national class? Many lols.

As I talked about before, this is known as the 'Farah effect'.

Third in the world at the WC half marathon? National class.

The Farah effect, for those of you who don't know, is the phenomenon that occurs in some posters when talking about Mo Farah in athletics.

The affected posters lose sight of reason and turn to their disrespect or dislike for the athlete to govern their otherwise well-educated thoughts on a matter. This often directly affects posts regarding Farah's ability (or lack of), but can also extend into wider athletics debate, causing poster's to forget parts of athletics history and sometimes reach as far as rendering poster's unable to accept simple facts backed by research and otherwise common sense (such as running in hot weather is difficult).

Such phenomena has recently resulted in posters claiming that;

A 27:00 championship 10k is not fast.

That 60% humidity and 80F are perfect 10,000m conditions.

That athletes (particularly Farah) are incapable of setting personal bests.

That professional athletes, when racing Farah, are only capable of 14 minute 5ks.

One of the primary requirements to get a distance world record is to actually make an effort to run fast in a race.

He just never does that.

And I don't know how he could switch it on after so many years of running only in his comfort zone.

Metric Miler wrote:

larkimm wrote:

59:32 HM national class? Many lols.

As I talked about before, this is known as the 'Farah effect'.

Third in the world at the WC half marathon? National class..

Might be a Voldemort effect, not a Farah effect...

in that it is not related to Farah but to certain overblown claims on his behalf...

Mr. Obvious wrote:

But, sure, you want to hang your hat on him being a world record holder at the indoor 2 mile, go for it.

I don't own a hat.

I just don't like it when people are dishonest.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Mo Farah has a 5000m PR of 12:53. That race is from July 2011 (5 years ago)

He has a 10000m PR of 26:46. That race is from Jun 2011.

His recent PR is in the 3000. That PR is 7:34 from July 2015.

He has a recent PR in the two mile of 8:07 in Aug 2014.

None of those PRs is anywhere near the world record in those events.

Farah-effect. 7:33 enroute to his 2 mile. 8:03 2 mile but I suppose indoors doesn't count or something?

reader of the forums 2.0 wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

But, sure, you want to hang your hat on him being a world record holder at the indoor 2 mile, go for it.

I don't own a hat.

I just don't like it when people are dishonest.

Events which do not qualify for IAAF-ratified world records are typically referred to as world bests. While very common in the first half of 20th century, a large number of races over distances by imperial measurements became rare occurrences and the IAAF removed all imperial measured events from its world record lists in 1976 – with the sole exception being the mile run (which remains common due to its historical prominence in track and field).

Metric Miler wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Mo Farah has a 5000m PR of 12:53. That race is from July 2011 (5 years ago)

He has a 10000m PR of 26:46. That race is from Jun 2011.

His recent PR is in the 3000. That PR is 7:34 from July 2015.

He has a recent PR in the two mile of 8:07 in Aug 2014.

None of those PRs is anywhere near the world record in those events.

Farah-effect. 7:33 enroute to his 2 mile. 8:03 2 mile but I suppose indoors doesn't count or something?

You got me. Obviously I wrote 7:34 because I am terribly biased against Mo Farah and want to denigrate all of his accomplishments, rather than because I overlooked an en-route indoor time that was one second faster.

Wtfunny wrote:

YEAH BUDDY wrote:

... Gebremeskel beat Farah with one shoe. ...

A comically ambiguous sentence.

That would at least be better than this:

While the indoor 2 mile may not be run often, I do know Bekele and Geb took serious cracks at it in their prime. It's not like the best ever haven't tried to go for time. They have, and Mo ran faster.

oh please wrote:

While the indoor 2 mile may not be run often, I do know Bekele and Geb took serious cracks at it in their prime. It's not like the best ever haven't tried to go for time. They have, and Mo ran faster.

It's not a world record. It is run infrequently. The indoor world best is much slower than the 2 mile outdoor world best. It is much, much slower than the record eligible distance most closely associated with it (3000m).

If you want to call him a world record holder, go ahead. You'll be inaccurate, but go ahead.

If you want to say that this world best indicates that he has potential to smash all the other outdoor world records, go ahead, I won't stop you.