EPO shots in Kenyan backroom: $100

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Letsrun apologists wrote:

One thing that I didn't mention - there is a high probability that someone is paying for EPO, but they end up getting something less pure or counterfeit. There's always that risk.

My thoughts exactly.

Yeah right. If you get fake EPO you will of course come back and pay for it over and over again.

Ever heard of customer satisfaction? Or are you two dumbfvks in the drugs-don't-work camp?

Do you actually believe he is doing it everyday?He is telling him that so that he doesn't worry about his heart exploding when you find out he just shot you up with Draino.You guys would be the worst possible drug users on the face of the earth."Of course this sh^t is 100% pure man, only the best.....trust me!"Give me a break.Why are letsrun readers so gullible, naive and stupid (hint: they live in their parents basements)

Agreed Wow wrote:

I love that the doctor says he does it almost daily. That means lots of DOPING is going on in Kenya!!!

Nice video

Duuuuude wrote:

documentary here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhBZfUv3eZk

I think I never said that EPO was hard to get.The challenge is not accessibility, but 1) financing it, and 2) keeping it refrigerated.If we assume that Kenyan dominance, at a factor of about 80 African runners to 1 western runner, can be explained purely by EPO, I wonder about the total cost of funding this EPO project, and, if the demand is so high, availability of supplies. Who can afford to supply EPO to the many teenage hopefuls who unexpectedly break into the scene each year?

Letsrun apologists wrote:

I remember the regular Kenyan apologist clowns (e.g. rekrunner) were saying it was harder to get EPO in Kenya than the U.S. which is 100% not true.

In the U.S., you either need a prescription, which would mean going through a corrupt doctor, which would take some work to find (call Alberto?) or going the Christian Hesch route, that is getting it through the black market, e.g. Tijuana and risking serious criminal and legal charges.

In Kenya it is available at your local pharmacy without a prescription.

$100 a shot seems out of the price range of most Kenyans. Are there so many "foreign sponsors" willing to invest in hundreds of unknown Kenyan runners?

B-level Kenyans can pick up a few thousand in a road race and "convert" to get to the next level. Or yeah, agents greasing the wheels.

rekrunner wrote:

$100 a shot seems out of the price range of most Kenyans. Are there so many "foreign sponsors" willing to invest in hundreds of unknown Kenyan runners?

Is that real or hypothetical?

It hardly seems to explain the scale of the alleged EPO doping that everyone seems to think is happening. But anything is possible I guess.

But are we still trying to construct theoretically possible scenarios? We don't need four part documentaries for that.

rekrunner wrote:

Is that real or hypothetical?

It hardly seems to explain the scale of the alleged EPO doping that everyone seems to think is happening. But anything is possible I guess.

But are we still trying to construct theoretically possible scenarios? We don't need four part documentaries for that.

Ok, so Kenyans are now getting busted all over the shop.

Every decent Kenyan has a European agent/doctor/manager shadowing them.

EPO is easy to get hold of in Kenya.

Kenya doesn't do any in house testing.

Do you still honestly believe that 'Kenya has a massive doping problem' is a crazy conspiracy theory? You're barking mad if you can't accept they don't.

At least play the 'Kenyans don't benefit from EPO like evil white people do' card. It's probably more credible than Kenyans don't dope.

I'm not one who claims to know how rampant doping is, but you are wrong about the cost of epo. It was once about $6000/year in the US, retail, for a typical 3x week dialysis patient injection.

But Amgen patents expired a long time ago in Europe. And Kenyan pharmacies don't require US hospital overhead rates and profits. So now you're talking $100/month rather than $100/shot perhaps.

There's really no financial barrier for coaches and agents to make a $500 investment in a promising athlete to test 5-month returns. Not hard to work out very positive ROI.

rekrunner wrote:

Is that real or hypothetical?

It hardly seems to explain the scale of the alleged EPO doping that everyone seems to think is happening. But anything is possible I guess.

But are we still trying to construct theoretically possible scenarios? We don't need four part documentaries for that.

Did you even watch the documentary? There was nothing "hypothetical" about obtaining EPO easily in Nairobi and Iten.

$100 is probably the "retail", i.e. ripoff, rate. I'm sure that connected athletes and agents pay an order of magnitude less for regular infusions.

The barrier for drug use in Kenya is getting good enough to run on the roads in Europe or U.S. (or now, Arab states) and pick up a few thousand $$. With poor testing and even basic knowledge of clearance times, EPO becomes a go-to on the way to "A-team" success.

For more sophisticated programs, blood doping would be almost impossible to detect given the testing climate, but we may never know it's extent because of that.

In this thread you said EPO was easier to get in the U. S without a prescription than in Kenya. There is no rational basis for your thinking.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6196723

Seriously? That was the best you could do?

J.R. wrote:

wowjustwow wrote:

"There is no harm,” the doctor says, according to the documentaries’ subtitles. “This is what we do almost every day.”

That is exactly what is said by doctors in every US city every day.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you north americans, quit applying your normal peacetime ways of thinking to the third world, Africa in particular.

ANYTHING GOES, AT ANY TIME. FORGET EVERYTHING YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT HOW PEOPLE LIVE AND ACT.

If you want a conspiracy theory here, you start with a lot of very good Kenyan unknowns, and from that pool, the better ones get with training groups of very wealthy and successful runners and agents, who then provide the means for the athletes to use EPO to get to the top level. You don't start with people with zero means and zero knowledge paying a lot of money for expensive drugs that need to be used frequently.

Letsrun apologists wrote:

In this thread you said EPO was easier to get in the U. S without a prescription than in Kenya. There is no rational basis for your thinking.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6196723

I don't know about easier, but I can't imagine it's very hard. In the modern world, you can buy your PEDs online and talk about doping strategies and ways to beat tests on PED forums.

Moses Kip wrote:

Agreed Wow wrote:

I love that the doctor says he does it almost daily. That means lots of DOPING is going on in Kenya!!!

Yeah, several thousand runners in Iten, and almost once a day one of them takes EPO! Doping must be rife!

Did he say one a day. If I drink beer daily does that mean i have just one! Do you think this is the only shop in Iten or place selling the gear. Add this to to 'agents' input and it adds up to a lot of doping

In that thread, the question was where anyone "thought" it was easier. What I think:- lack of a prescription is not a barrier for obtaining EPO, neither in Kenya, nor in the USA. I cannot imagine Americans in sports generally obtain their EPO by prescription only.- financing EPO is a bigger barrier for Kenyans, than for Americans.Therefore, as easy as it may be in Kenya, I think it is easier for Americans, mainly for financial reasons.

Letsrun apologists wrote:

In this thread you said EPO was easier to get in the U. S without a prescription than in Kenya. There is no rational basis for your thinking.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6196723

rekrunner wrote:

In that thread, the question was where anyone "thought" it was easier. What I think:

- lack of a prescription is not a barrier for obtaining EPO, neither in Kenya, nor in the USA. I cannot imagine Americans in sports generally obtain their EPO by prescription only.

- financing EPO is a bigger barrier for Kenyans, than for Americans.

Therefore, as easy as it may be in Kenya, I think it is easier for Americans, mainly for financial reasons.

In America you would have to be connected though, in Kenya you can just get it. Also there's a legality issue, in Kenya there doesn't seem to be that problem. In the US, getting drugs such as EPO through dodgy methods would be a criminal offence.

Also America has the slight issue with OOC testing by their own governing bodies. Not something a Kenyan would ever have to worry about.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Letsrun apologists wrote:

In Kenya it is available at your local pharmacy without a prescription.

Unless you saw it on the shelf next to the aspirin, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. It is easy enough to get, and there are doctors there who are offering it, though what you wrote conjures up an image of having synthetic EPO placed on the aisle next to the allergy medication.

Jeff old pal I think you need to brush up on your comprehension skills or control the images your imagination is conjuring up.