Happy Fathers Day, all.
My only run this week was 30:00 on Tuesday, running off and on 200m at an overall average of 7:11. Life has been busy as of late, but very enjoyable.
I still owe some comments on HM training to a couple posters, which I will be happy to supply when I am in front of my computer with my log of running notes and a calculator and some extra time to read over the requests again.
I just wanted to make this general comment. This thread was created years ago as a resource for runners who would otherwise probably never cross paths to exchange training notes and ideas.
When anyone comes across a method that he or she has used and has worked for them or other runners that they know, I think it is helpful to share, in case anybody else wants to try to model it to see if they can reap similar successes.
I re-joined the thread back around February of this year solely for that purpose. I didn’t see any other runners on the thread currently trying to train according to a model that I was using. That doesn’t mean I think my model is the best way for everybody. But I think it is a good way for many runners (yes, even newer runners) if implemented and followed properly.
All training needs to be scaled to the talent level of the runner performing it. Otherwise, you are not going to see an outcome as successful as it otherwise could be.
I do not claim to be a Canova expert. In fact, I made that same remark back on my initial post. But I do believe I have a fair understanding of his principles, just as Smoove has a fair understanding of Daniels principles, and just as others have a fair understanding of Lydiard or Hansons or Pfitz or Hudson or what-have-you.
Do we need to follow exact schedules or exact written workouts in order to be properly representing the method we personally enjoy? I would answer, honestly, that it doesn’t really matter. What matters is our enjoyment. What matters is the outcome. What matters is the ability for that method to be replicated and personalized for individual athletes. That is the science and art of running. Of coaching.
Part of that personalization is understanding that not every runner on this thread, in fact probably not most of us, are doing every single possible thing that we each could to make ourselves the best that we possibly could. Most of us work, have children, other passions in life, so that running really only consumes a fractionally small part of our lives. We are not professional runners who do this for a living.
So we are left to do the best we can, with the resources we have, with the time available to us.
Smoove may not train exactly how Daniels would have him train. I may not train exactly how Canova would have me train. GT may not train exactly how Hansons would have him train.
But is there something to be gained by observing and modeling the schedules we follow?
That is what this all boils down to. Whether or not you want to call my training Canova training, I would like to think that I have demonstrated that this type of system can work when implemented properly.
1:25:05 half marathon in November—> Five months of training at 55mi/wk average —> 2:47:00 marathon.
Successful principles can be modified and adapted for “Average Joes.” Which we all are. None of here are professionals. And there have been a ton of successes on this thread, under a large variety of different principles, that we can all glean something by observing.
That is the purpose of this thread. And that is my hope for it moving forward. That the actual training that we each are implementing can speak for itself. Moreso than the theoretical training that is only occurring as a concept in our minds.
Happy Running. Hope everyone else had a great week.
Male, 33, 5’10” 160 lbs
PRs: 16:03 (2011) 2:56:47 (2016) 4:42 mile (2011)
Recent: 17:19 ( June 2018)
Goal: Continue Mileage Ramp / November 5K
M: 5 miles hotel parking lot 7:49avg
T: 5 miles hotel parking lot 7:52avg
W: AM: 1.5 miles 7:44avg
PM: 3 miles 7:47avg plus strides
R: AM: 2 miles 7:40avg
PM: 6 miles 8:00avg
F: AM: 2 miles 7:42avg
PM: 5 miles 7:45avg
Sa: AM: 2 miles 7:52avg
PM: 1 mi w/u + 5 miles 7:26avg over hills. Finished w/ 6 x 8” hill sprints
Su: AM: 3 miles 7:51avg
PM: Planned 9 miles
I’m officially on break. Very grateful to have the next 4 weeks to train without stressing the mind or body beyond each day’s runs. I have been slowly adjusting to doubles since last Wednesday and it feels great. On this new schedule I should be averaging just under 60 miles per week over the summer, up from around 43 last month. I definitely need to be careful and listen to my body.
There’s been some talk about daily training paces and how most of us seem to build into our runs. I’m going to start adding that data to these posts. I usually start out at 8:00-8:15 pace and don’t go much below 7:30 especially in this heat unless I’m racing or I’m running something a bit more uptempo on the weekends.
I’ve been getting better at not looking at my watch until the run is over. Otherwise, I’d try to keep everything under 8 even on days where it would be better to slow down.
The workout last night provided a change of scenery and elevation. We have a bridge nearby that is about 8/10 of a mile long and fairly steep. Going up and over several times while stepping on the gas fartlek-style is a lot like an interval workout. But even then I don’t think I ran faster than 7:00 pace at any point during the run.
Hope everyone has a great week!
Stone, agree with all your comments. I was coming at this from a different perspective. The perspective of someone who wants to understand Canova himself, someone who is interested in the primary text if you will, and a proper exegesis of that text.
There is no denying that Canova principles can be put to use in a variety of contexts but the Canova trademark, and what has propelled his runners to another stratosphere (the sub-2:06s of the world) is the capitalization of their aerobic house. Making them go even faster and longer than what they are already capable of.
If you are a 2:50 marathoner with sub-par endurance, you don’t need Canova. You need to build your aerobic engine. Not saying that’s you or anyone else here. I’m saying that Canova is very insistent that runners spend 8-10 years focusing on that development. How many of us actually do that?
Sort of a mixed week for me:
M - 21:00 on elliptical followed by 6 miles easy
T - 20 minute tempo at 5:36 average pace on a breezy be overcast night; 7 total
W - 6 easy
Th - 10 easy followed by 14:00 on elliptical
F - 6 mile progression by effort, 3 mile cool down
Sa - 12 miles
Su - TBD, probably off, maybe elliptical
Great tempo sesssion Tuesday to close out my prior 9 day microcycle. Weather as about as good as I'll get all summer. For a frame of reference for those who are heart rate guys, I was in the low 170s by the end with a peak of 174.
Wanted to get the first workout of my microcycle in on Friday, but wasn't sure what I'd do when I left at noon for my run. Heat and sun were horrific and I ended up just going moderate paced into a progression for 6 miles. Averaged about 6:40 and peaked at 6:25 for my last mile and my heart rate was in high 170s peaking over 180 despite being almost a minute slower than Tuesday.
Yesterday was my long run - was going to go 16, but even at 6:30 am, the weather got me and the guys I was with. Only low 70s, but 88% humidity and full sun. At just under 7:00 pace (on hills and a soft surface), I was back into the low 170s.
I'm not a heart rate guy, but it is obviously a great perceived effort indicator. Normally I'm in the high 140s or low 150s on easy days, but it was just a struggle at the end of the week.
Haven't had a full off day since knots excactly a month ago, so it might be time for me to work in an unscheduled day off today. Just a bit beat up (feet) and am probably pushing the envelope a touch more than needed 16 weeks out from my goal race.
RRR stats.6ft.
Week 3 of the Pappy Plan (Turning R3 into a Man)
Sun - 75 Easy 9.25
Mon - 65Easy+ 6x Strides 8.5
Tue- WU - 5x1000 @10kish (2:3x rest) 5x200@ 39 (200 jog) CD. 9.4 total
Wed- 60 Easy 7.4
Thu- 60 w Progression 6.37
Fri- 45 Easy + 6x 15s Hill Sprints 6.1
Sat- 90 E. 12.11. 8:30 to Sub 7. 7:24 pace overall.
59.3 run. 40ish Bike. 2x Upper Body Lifting
Really good solid week. Extremely pleased w the mileage and the added intensity and fun stuff! Felt stronger on Saturday than on Monday. Longest run since the trail race and it felt good clipping off those 7 flats w little effort.
Coming up this week a little less mileage but strides and hills and intervals and progression. Really enjoying all the variety.
We are going to build an Aerobic Mansion.
love how before too hot has any “discussion”, it already starts with a conclusion (be it stated or implicit).
anyway, just a driveby post. Gotta get back out there to the grind- I’m following too hot’s training plan of 120+mpw at sub 6 pace!
After a wildly successful 9 week base phase, this week starts my first week of workouts for a fall marathon following the Hanson's-esque advanced marathon plan shooting for a sub3 marathon. Since there was at least one person asking about following Hansons to a T (and you'll see I'm already not doing that this week), I'm going to try to include what Hanson would have had me do if I lived in a vacuum. These directives will show up in the parenthesis at the end of each day's line if it is different than what I did. Don't know how many weeks I'll keep this up but it's my intent to do it all the way through just to be informative.
17 weeks out:
Monday - Off, long sunday travel day meant it was in my best interest to sleep in on Monday. (6 easy sched.)
Tuesday - 1 up, 12x400 with 400easy recoveries, 2 down: 84,87,85,85,83,83,83,82,80,83,85,81s. 9 miles total.
All of them were faster than the Hanson's suggested pace for my goal time and there's quite a bit of scatter. I think this is partially a function of not being on the track in a looooong time so I have some practicing to do to find the groove. I'm not going to lie and say it didn't feel great though. This is partially why I wanted to run the 5k Saturday, takes the guess work out of current fitness vs. Hansons projected fitness for 5k-10k pace intervals if I have a very recent 5k time. Didn't fade at the end of the workout and didn't feel like it had any negative effects on the rest of the week so I'm not going to worry too much. Will try to slow down a bit next week and it'll probably happen naturally as the mileage goes up. I was pretty rested going into this one. (target pace should have been 88-92s/400m)
Wednesday - 5 easy @ 8:24avg, partially making up for monday (off sched.)
Thursday - 7 easy @ 8:33avg, (6 easy sched.)
Friday - 6 easy @ 8:29avg
Saturday - 6 easy @ 7:58avg
Sunday - 10 long @ 7:38avg (8 sched.)
Total mileage = 43 miles @ 8:04 avg pace
Happy Fathers day everyone!!!
I did a total of zero this week outside of strength and mobility. This is getting very frustrating. I was hoping to run in a hometown race today with my son and BS with some old friends. I can't race and my son said he didn't want to go.
Disciple of 2hot wrote:
love how before too hot has any “discussion”, it already starts with a conclusion (be it stated or implicit).
anyway, just a driveby post. Gotta get back out there to the grind- I’m following too hot’s training plan of 120+mpw at sub 6 pace!
Building up to 120mpw at 6:00 pace over a period of 8-10 years is actually a great way to construct one’s aerobic house. The volume and pace would obviously need to be scaled according to the individual’s talent level and durability. When I suggested someone like Smoove might have been capable of something like that in his early years, it was actually quite a compliment.
too hot wrote:[/b
If you are a 2:50 marathoner with sub-par endurance, you don’t need Canova. You need to build your aerobic engine. Not saying that’s you or anyone else here. I’m saying that Canova is very insistent that runners spend 8-10 years focusing on that development. How many of us actually do that?
Canova doesn't coach anyone without "elite" potential. Canova doesn't coach anyone with an unbuilt house. He's looking to maximize his investment of time/name-recognition. He probably advocates that his runners have proper nutrition, hydration, and rest. That doesn't mean that proper hydration, nutrition, and rest are only beneficial to people with well-built aerobic houses. Too hot, again I say to you that there is less interest in a proper exegesis of a text than there is in a discussion of useful training principles.
Pappy,
I feel for you. This is all just making your eventual comeback even more epic!
Fathers Day in Taiwan is August 8th. The word for 8 in Chinese is "ba"... August 8th is "ba ba"... a homonym for father.
RRR - Nice week. Nice summer volume. It will be interesting to see the Pappy Plan unfold.
Smoove - You deserve a day off.
Tdr - Keep at it, my friend. Grab as many summer miles as you can...your body will tell you what you can do.
Me: M49, 5’6”, 125
First goal: find a job.
Near goal: weekly volume, daily volume, hills, and somehow get in a prep run or two before a July 4th 5k (in this summer weather).
Far goal: run a fall marathon, probably Richmond
M: 17.5 at 6:29.9 overall...got good weather and went hog wild...59 and cloudy to start, steady rain toward end...hilliest route...last 10.5 were 6:21, 6:27, 6:25, 6:31, 6:14, 6:18, 6:12, 6:06, 6:15, 5:55, 2:55
T: 12.13 at 6:41 overall...6:20, 6:21, 6:16, 5:59, 0:47 to finish...felt good
W: 11.13 at 6:45 overall...6:26, 6:27, 6:22, 0:49
T: 11.5 at 6:40 overall...6:22, 6:20, 6:14, 3:08
F: 11.5 at 6:39 overall...6:19, 6:13, 6:07, 3:01...felt strong
Sat: 13.13 at 6:42 overall...hilly...bright sun/sweaty...6:28, 6:26, 6:28, 6:22, 6:10, 0:51...nice control
76 miles
Have a great week, everyone.
M38, 6-6 185
Chicago Marathon
Goal: sub 2:40
Week 2 of Being Slo-Twitch’s Gimp
M 9 easy
T 10 x 500 at b/n 3k and 5k pace w 2’ rest
Goal = 97.5 (5:14 pace)
Result: 95.2-97.5 (96.7. Avg) (5:11 pace)
9 total
W 9 easy
Th 9 easy
F 3 x (1200 @ 5k-10sec, 90” rest, 400 @ mile,
4:00 jog rest).
Goal = 3:52.5 / 75
Result: 3:53.8 / 74.8
3:54.8 / 76.7
3:58.4 / 74.3
7 total
S 16 @ 7:15 avg
S 11 easy = 70 total for week
For the Tuesday workout we got lucky with ideal summer conditions thanks to a big rain shower that parked over the track. Also had a couple fast rabbits. Felt great about that one.
Friday morning workout was rough. Solo effort. Temps around 70F at sunrise and ~100% humidity. Going in I knew the goal pace on the 1200s would be a stretch as I’ve never done those faster than about 4:00 and that was in perfect/cold conditions. The first 1200 felt okay. The second hurt. The last was a real gut check. Imentally cursed slo-twitch’s name more than once, but overall it was a fun/productive workout and I was pleased with the effort.
Back to the grind...
I'll carry this over from last week.
too hot, in your opinion what is the downside of doing the long marathon variations (5 x 2 miles w/ 800, 4 x 3 miles, etc.)? What would be the more appropriate way to train the average Joe?
M34
Hamstrings are coming along. Going to try to get over 40 miles without any real intensity. Focus will be on increasing the frequency of running and continuing supplementary work. Maybe include some light hill reps.
I think there are two causes for the stress on my hamstrings. First is that I think I need to get my hips under me. Always been a problem. Core work should help. Second, I might be overstriding. So this puts a lot of stress on my high hamstrings as I’m pulling rather than pushing.
Over the last several years I’ve shifted more from forefoot striking towards heel striking. I may consider shifting back, and I might try to focus on cadence. (I think I’m over 170, but measurement might affect it.) Focus on landing under my center of gravity.
M - weights (squats, hamstring curls, etc.)
Tu - 4 @ 6:43
W - 5 @ 7:10 (sore from Monday)
Th - weights (deadlift, hamstrings, etc.)
F - 6 jogging
Sa - hiking
Su - 8 @ 6:47, hilly (I think I’m in outsiderunner land)
Total: 23 miles running/jogging
No real pain, but not 100%
Happy Father's Day everybody!
Me:
42, M, right about 130
Old PRs: 16:30s/34:20s/2:44
Current goals: Get fit, have fun, get back into racing (fall HM?)
My week:
M 1:12 easy with trolley track in 45:39 plus 4 x strides / 21 shuffle plus 1 x bat eviction (caught it in my daughter’s butterfly net). Pleasant, felt nice and smooth.
T 1:10 easy Mineral Hills / 21 shuffle. Pleasant weather, ok run but pretty hilly and the downhills beat up my legs a little more than I would have liked. Mountain laurel very pretty, though.
W 1:42 with 16k in the park in 1:08:39 (4:17/k) plus 4 x strides coming back. Overcast, legs a little heavy getting going but pretty good for most of the run.
Th 1:21 Fitzy's trails / 21 shuffle. Early, nice, felt good, did a few hill pick-ups for kicks.
F 59 with 4 x 1k/1k (4:47/3:54, 4:44/3:43, 4:37/3:44, 4:43/3:41). Early, light drizzle, just enough to feel a little cooler without actually getting wet. Pretty happy to get in decent work on the “up” ks even if I was kind of falling asleep on the “downs.”
Sat 1:37 Cross Path easy plus 1 x hurdling groundhog herd (a grunt of groundhogs?) / 21 shuffle. Early, nice, a little tired but not too bad.
Sun 1:20 Seven Sisters trails
Went exploring on some pretty rugged trails. A lot of fun, except for the parts that were no fun at all (especially a few stretches of skittery downhill).
Total: 10:45 (9:22 running, 1:33 shuffle)
too hot wrote:
Disciple of 2hot wrote:
love how before too hot has any “discussion”, it already starts with a conclusion (be it stated or implicit).
anyway, just a driveby post. Gotta get back out there to the grind- I’m following too hot’s training plan of 120+mpw at sub 6 pace!
Building up to 120mpw at 6:00 pace over a period of 8-10 years is actually a great way to construct one’s aerobic house. The volume and pace would obviously need to be scaled according to the individual’s talent level and durability. When I suggested someone like Smoove might have been capable of something like that in his early years, it was actually quite a compliment.
Of course. That’s why I’m using your system bro! #trusttheprocess #toohot4life #ivorytowervisionsmeetrealworldfailure
Hi everyone! I've been a little off this week...From this post and from running. Seems my motivation has gone lower after that 10k race. Maybe the body (and mind) is asking for a rest period.
Monday: Rest
Tuesday: 40' at 5:00 min/km
Wednesday: 10x300m with WU and CD. Averaged 1 min in every rep. Was a good workout but a lot of wind,
Thursday: Unplanned rest. Felt sick and decided to stay at home resting.
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Planned 3x2000m but only managed to get one rep in. My left quad cramped like I've never seen and had to walk really slow back to my car. Don't really know what happened...
Sunday: The quad felt much better and decided to get my long run in. 14km at 5:00'. Started at 8:30 am and it was already 25ºC in Lisbon. Crazy weather. Stopped 4 times for water and to wet the whole tshirt.
Was a awful week in terms of overall mileage and I felt really tired after that 10k and the swim race. Maybe go easy on the workouts and on the 15km. Maybe pace my dad for a nice time...
Kroc, your question is workout-centric. But notice what Canova himself has to say about the issues we’ve been discussing. This is very, very good advice:
“Sometimes you see, people ask me what my great athletes do for training. This question is not bad. But better question in my opinion is “how did your athletes make progress to what they train now?How many steps did they take to achieve this result where they can handle my training plan?” You see, great training programs, they always have a progress plan. Many people wish to have advice that makes them better in just a few weeks. You want some magic workouts that will make you run faster results. No my friend, training does not work like that. Training should be general first and then you make progress to more specific runs. How can you achieve great result when your aerobic capacity is weak and your endurance is not so good.”