Road Racing & Training Thread: Week Ending 04 Feb 2018

pewow -- I have heard a lot of anecdotal stories of runners combining xc skiing with great success, especially in regards to long-term development and longevity. There is a guy on the 50+ thread who has long been at/near national class in both disciplines. Turning 60 this year, he remains a sub-3 marathoner, and consistently races at 90% AG percentage.

Bdubs -- You salvaged a solid week, despite the flu. Hope you are feeling better -- influenza is not to be taken lightly.

outsiderunner -- An amazing week, indeed! I agree -- don't change up your training until after the marathon. Your upcoming taper will be well-deserved, and will serve you well. Regarding my weight, I gained 20 pounds in the first two months of my layoff. Race weight was about 157 last year. 163 or so in my 20s and 40s. 155 in high school. Target race length isn't a factor, except that higher mileage makes weight gain less likely.

Still Improving -- Quality work. I like that tempo workout, maybe I should take another look at Daniels. And 11 miles at MP (or MP minus 10 sec?) during your long run is impressive. I tried incorporating MP in my Pfitzinger medium-long and long runs last year, and couldn't maintain it for more than a mile or two. I took some solace in the fact that Daniels states specifically that MP has no specific physiological benefit beyond that of an easy pace. True or not, I don't know.

slo-twitch -- Three workouts in an 80-mile week. OK to be tired by Sunday! You say "not spectacular," but nice work, nonetheless.

Working Harder -- Sorry about the DNF. Hope the stomach woes are a passing glitch. A 5K in three or four weeks sounds good.

AdrianChr -- The 16 x 400 is impressive. The last time I tried that was April 1977!

rrr -- You have been assembling a nice resume of work. I am looking forward to your 8K results.

DietBacon -- Those three runs at altitude I am sure count for something.

Twig Mzungu -- Good to hear the achilles pain seems to have been non-serious. Nice, controlled effort in the 8K.

Pretzel Man -- 68 miles is serious stuff. How does this pre-Boston cycle compare to previous years? I have run Boston only twice -- 1983 and 2000. I had long planned on running it in 2017 (to make it an-every-17-years thing), and purposely ran a BQ in 2016 ... only to realize I was a week too late for 2017! In the old days, didn't we have the entire calendar year? Regarding the injections, no, never heard of it. Strengthening and stretching should cure me.

Elixer -- Nice progress. Plenty of time to prep for sub-3 at Limerock.

Well, those are my comments from Page One posters! Sorry for the wordiness. I'll try to edit more tightly for the Page Two folks ... just want to thank everyone for sharing insights and info.

-Allen

Pappy, regarding the elliptical, I do think it's working, although sometimes I feel some knee stress during the workouts. Increasing the incline usually relieves that, though.

Between my 20-minute sessions, I have been doing leg strength exercises, which I believe have been key to my improvement so far. Eccentric leg extensions and eccentric hamstring curls, I guess they'd be called, as well as a couple other leg exercises on a third machine. 1981 was my last venture into a weight room or gym, so it's all new to me.

I would say I think free weights and compound movements are way more effective than machines like leg extensions and curls. Squats. Deadlifts. Etc.

runrincerepeat wrote:

I would say I think free weights and compound movements are way more effective than machines like leg extensions and curls. Squats. Deadlifts. Etc.

I think you're right. Currently I cannot do a single squat with NO weight (or stand from a seated position without assistance from my arms ... or walk downstairs without placing both feet on every single tread), so the machines are probably a good first step. They allow a very simple, controlled movement while I gain some strength. Of course, that's their liability in the long run, I suppose.

Pappy: the ultimate goal for that workout is to run the whole set with no rest, meaning 4x1500 at the same speed, which for me right now is close to 3k pace. Seems a bit scary but I still got a few months for that.

Allen: I've too was never a fan of machines. They constrict movement and just allow you one movement path, leaving some muscles unused. In time it would certainly be beneficial to work up to squats and lunges as opposed to leg extensions and curls

too hot -- Are you doing anything proactively to get past the knee issues? Regarding macrocycles, I can't plan anything specifically until I get healthy, but would like to see this: Feb-April - gradual mileage build; May-July - add workouts; Aug - target race.

statfanatic -- Quality speedwork AND big mileage.

Smoove -- No doubt it's encouraging to look at your log and see you're ahead of last year. And last year was a very good year.

hantph96 -- Solid week, and great job of time management to do it!

Pappy -- With your background, and the way your training is going already, you'll reach your 1:30 goal. Fitness will come back very quickly, especially as you shed weight.

jewbacca -- Another guy running high mileage. Always impressive to this 40mpw guy, and adding that 8-miler after the 15K race ... that's dedication.

runningforfun -- Seven pounds is a big weight drop in one week. Proceed with caution as you add workouts and a sixth day.

angryjohnny -- How did you feel after that Tuesday track session? Remarkable.

AdrianChr -- Thanks, I agree about machines. I've always used free weights for upper body work. Just not there yet with my leg strength/imbalance issues.

Other than the usual and immediate need to find a bathroom I felt pretty good afterwards.

My lower back tightened up during the 3200 and again during the tempo on Friday. I’m hoping that’s just a product of returning to action after a couple down weeks.

runrincerepeat wrote:

I would say I think free weights and compound movements are way more effective than machines like leg extensions and curls. Squats. Deadlifts. Etc.

And sometimes you have to use whatever weight is available. I drape my 2 year old over my back and do sets of 10 squats every now and then. It's silly but she likes it, and I'm weak enough that it makes me sore. Still trying to figure out how to do leg curls with her....

Smoove wrote:

Ballsy racing Jewbacca, even if it didn't pan out as desired.

It was either that or run 15k into the wind solo. I really hoped somebody else would drop and we could run 5:20s together, but unfortunately they were just that fit.

Nice week for you. I've got one of those 4 x mile, run for a long time, 4 mile tempo long runs scheduled for this weekend. Might shuffle it down the schedule a week or two though... sounds like a back breaker.

Pewow - Hope you enjoyed the off week!

Bdubs - That's a solid "sick week."

OR - Nice volume. Will be interesting to see how the weather turns out for Shamrock. East Coast has been a bit mercurial the last few weeks.

Improving - Good week. That 3,2,1 tempo workout is impressive.

Slo - Looks like a pretty good week to me, even if it wasn't quite what you were hoping for. That mile alternations workout looks tough.

Allen - Good to see you starting to get some mileage in again. Stay healthy!

Adrian - Nice week! That 4x4x400 workout intrigues me. Not much rest there.

RRR - Really solid week with quality and volume there. Looking forward to the 8k race report.

Twig - Good week and race. I think you're pretty fit, wouldn't be surprised if you can average that 8k pace for a full 1/2.

Pretzel - You're not the only one eager for spring. Good week, really nice long run.

Smoove - 81 miles is nothing to shake a stick at. That 5 minute recovery period in Wednesday's workout is interesting. It's almost long enough I would worry about my body slipping out of workout mode and having a tough time getting going again. Doesn't look like that was an issue for you though.

Hantph - Solid week. That Tuesday workout looks fun. Might have to try that sometime. That's a lot of work Friday as well.

Pappy - Wow, 45 miles already! I'd say you're back to serious training. Also wouldn't put too much stock in that 13.1 assuming it wasn't a race.

Jewbacca - That's an impressive week both in terms of volume and quality.

R4F - Nice week. You look like you're in pretty solid shape already with a lot of time to get even faster before your goal race.

AJ - That's a really solid looking first real week back. #StopRupp.

statfanatic wrote:

Smoove - 81 miles is nothing to shake a stick at. That 5 minute recovery period in Wednesday's workout is interesting. It's almost long enough I would worry about my body slipping out of workout mode and having a tough time getting going again. Doesn't look like that was an issue for you though.

You know, I almost skipped it altogether for that reason, so that the workout would be over more quickly, and so as to not clear waste products before intervals 5 through 7, but when you view Daniels' progressions as a whole, you see that he is pretty thoughtful about things like this. I felt like the 5 minute break was intended to be a small mental pre-cursor to the TLT (tempo-long-tempo) effort this weekend, sort of readying me mentally for having a break between tempo bouts.

I botched that workout anyway, but that was a result of me making a bad decision.

Thanks.. My plan is to start the 8k at 5:40 pace and adjust a bit. Would like to go for 28 flat if the conditions allow. I feel a ton lighter and stronger than my 17:12 on Thanksgiving..

Any advice is appreciated tho!

Monday, January 29, 2018

0.55 mi w/u, 6.32 mi @ 7:34 pace *161 bpm, 166 spm, 8x100m barefoot strides: 7.37 miles

Tuesday, January 30, 2018

0.55 mi w/u, 6.44 @7:35 pace *168 spm: 6.99 miles

Wednesday, January 31, 2018

0.48 mi w/u, 4x150m, 5x500,100slowjog,200 (93,31/88,31/88,31/88,31/88,29), 2 mi c/d @8:54 pace: 5.36 miles

This was a true test of strength. Goal was 85-90 and 30-32. Probably could’ve been faster on the last 500. First quality workout in a while.

Thursday, February 1, 2018

0.53 mi w/u, 7 mi @9:05 pace *161 bpm, 168 spm: 7.53 miles

Done on 5 hours of sleep. The extremely slow pace was intentional in order to get a good recovery, which I feel was achieved. I think I convinced Coach Beck to not go along with his original plan of a tempo run, thank god. First mile was 9:59! Really focused on cadence on this one.

Friday, February 2, 2018

5 mi w/ 3 miles tempo (6:17, 6:05, 6:26) *160 bpm, 174 spm: 5 miles

Dolese Park. C grade workout. Went to Red Coyote today to look at shoes.

Saturday, February 3, 2018

7 mi (7:45->6:45): 7 miles

Absolutely horrible. Could not finish.

Sunday, February 4, 2018

3 mi: 3 miles

Got the uncompleted miles in. Made the mistake of trying to run in my old Brooks and now my shins hurt.

Finally some comments

Pewow - Jealous of the xc skiing. One of these days soon I'll move back to a place that it is possible to do once again

Bdub - rest and hydrate. I've gone through that flu this year as well and it sucks but you'll bounce back. Do things right for recovery so you limit the downtime.

OR- solid long run. watching anxiously

Slo- solid week. Glad to see you posting your training again as I've always enjoyed following it. Are you working with a coach currently?

RRR- great week and those miles look solid.

Elixer- glad to hear the achilles is getting better. Keep taking it easy on it

Stat - those 200s sound fun and challenging. I like the more uptempo recovery interval

Smoove - good week, even with that pacing hiccup. Do you monitor pace during the repeat or only check it at the mile split? If I run reps like that on the road then I'm constantly checking instant pace which seems to be good and bad. Good in that it helps to keep from overcooking them but bad because we all know instant pace isn't terribly accurate. This leads me to surging at times rather than running smooth. Wish I had a good, marked trail to run these on because I don't think hitting the track all the time for mile reps is great either.

Jewbacca - agreed on the racing strategy, ballsy. I have one 15k race near me I run yearly (end of March) and already looking forward to that one. I don't know what it is about that distance but I quite enjoy it.

Myself

Goal - low 2:40s marathon May 26 (Bayshore)

Starting to consider going the coached route for this build so curious to hear others thoughts. I've never had a run coach but did work with a tri coach years back when I was doing those. I'd like someone more Canova-esque in their approach but not even sure where to start. The few local guys I know are all Daniels followers, which is fine, just not what I want.

I see Hudson offers a monthly online coaching. Pretty standard stuff, fill out a questionnaire, he writes you a plan, and then pairs you with one of his elites for workout explanations and other stuff. Cost is decent enough but I just wonder if you're essentially paying for one of his canned plans from Run Faster? Hadley will write you a plan for a one time fee but again, not sure that's any better than a canned plan.

If I'm going to pay someone I'd rather have the ability to modulate training based on each week or even workout. But that may be a level of coaching that's well outside the range I would be willing to pay, not to mention outside my talent level too.

Working Harder wrote:

If I'm going to pay someone I'd rather have the ability to modulate training based on each week or even workout.

100% agree. Not trying to bash on anyone, I just couldn't put up money for a 1-time input/output plan. One of the most important aspects of coaching is tweaking things as training progresses. The last time I had a coach we tweaked things almost weekly.

Alright folks, time for a novel. My late fall restart was a success in the “more running” department but not in the “more posting” department. Turns out having an infant really cuts into your free time to surf the internet. Now that I’m really starting to feel “back” I want to get back to the thread that encouraged me to go for it last spring when those sourpusses over at the defunct RunnersWorld forum recommended I take the coward’s way out…goals wise anyway. Looks like there are some familiar names and some new names yet again, so the quick download…

Currently training for a half marathon end of March as my motivator to get my mileage up after the birth of Gordon Jr. last fall, then TBD plans for a couple months before Chicago Marathon training this summer. Half PR is 1:28 from the same race last year, which feels a little soft because I did it after my first 4 weeks ever at 50+ miles and didn’t taper, and negative split by about 4 minutes. I was seriously underestimating myself going into that race apparently. Unfortunately my running break because of Jr. lead to 20+lbs. weight gain and several months off while we redefined what “sleep” meant. Averaged 22mpw in December…another reason to not feel motivated to post compared to you heavy loggers around here. Still riding the Hanson’s train for now until it stops making me faster. Plus, the way the days are set up works well with my schedule. I was looking at Daniels for a bit for the summer, but finding a time midweek to run 15-17 seems near impossible, especially if running before work in the morning. For some reason the time I need to run 13-14 feels infinitely more doable than finding that last 20-30min. Here’s the last month rundown and then I’ll be a normal person…

Week of 12/31:

8x600m @ 6:28avg,

3mi Tempo (“goal half marathon pace”) @ 7:14 on snow,

9 long run,

35 total. 5x5 StrongLifts 2 times.

Week of 1/7:

6x800m @ 6:25avg on snow,

4mi T @ 6:45,

10 long run,

40 total. 5x5 StrongLifts 2 times.

Week of 1/14:

5x1000m @ 6:15 avg,

4mi T @ 6:41,

11 long run,

40 total. StrongLifts 1x.

Week of 1/21:

4x1200m @ 6:08 avg,

4mi T @ 6:43,

10 long,

40 total. StrongLifts 1x.

Last Week

Sunday : 12 @ 7:55avg

Monday: 5 easy

Tuesday: 6 easy, workout moved to Wednesday due to snow

Wednesday: 6x1mi @ 6:26avg w/ 400m recoveries+ wu/cd (“speed” phase switch to “strength” phase). StrongLifts

Thursday: Off

Friday: 5mi T @ 6:42avg + wu/cd

Saturday: 10mi @ 7:35 avg….was supposed to be run on Sunday but snow was coming. Which means next week’s mileage will look lower than the last few and this weeks is a little inflated. StrongLifts

Week total = 50mi

2 months ago my “A” goal was 1:30 for the half. This January I ran more miles and faster workouts than last January, so now I’ve changed my mind and my “A” goal is probably PR? See how the next 7 weeks goes. Down 10 pounds since Thanksgiving, probably 15 to go to get back to where I was last June, but already feeling the lighter/stronger benefits and had to re-retire some of my more accommodating jeans.

If all goes how I’d like it to, I will be a boring poster, since Hanson’s is an incremental but almost identical build the whole way through and the only adjustments I have planned is for weather or a couple miles tacked onto the end of the long runs. However, it’s better to start posting now so there’s context when something inevitably goes wrong this year and I need advice. Ha.

The weather was relenting up North later in the week. Had to scrap Sunday's run due to a blizzard and ice storm.

M - 7

T - unexpected day off, really busy with some work

W - 6.5

Th - 6.1

F - 4.5

S - 70 min long run ~ 9.5

Su - off due to weather

This week looks promising with weather and temps. Looking to start upping the mileage. Good week guys. I love reading all of these reports to see different training styles.

I haven't had a coach since I ran for the club right after college, and as a Daniels guy I'd be useless tonyou as a coach, but I can share with you what I do as a coach from a process perspective.

I start with a questionnaire to get as much background on the athlete as I think I need, and then I usually follow it up with a 30 minute phone call. I use that to talk through training philosophy, strengths, weaknesses and expectations. I then use the questionnaire and conversation to create a customized plan for the athlete.

When I do that, I lay every day of the training cycle out, including easy days. But then the key is that I explain to the athlete that the plan should be viewed as a roadmap and directions. Just like when you use a roadmap and directions to get someplace, sometimes you have bad traffic or detours. When that happens, you need to find a different route than is set forth in your roadmap. Generally, I asked my athletes to check in with me after their workouts and let me know how they are going and how they are feeling. I will also proactively check in on them usually once per week, sometimes a little less often depending on what is going on. I also invite them to a private Strava group so that I can track what they are doing fairly easily.

I use all of those things as ways to monitor what is going on and adjust as things move forward. More often than not, the adjustment is to back down volume, or slow down paces. Occasionally, we will decide to drop workouts altogether or to change the work out to something less intense. Even more commonly, I find out that the athlete has a new race that they didn't know about early on in the process and we rearrange the schedule to accommodate that.

So the end result can be a fair amount of back-and-forth or very little back-and-forth depending on the athlete. Where I think a good coach adds value is coming up with the customized plan that addresses races, number of weeks until goal race, etc. and then customizing that plan in response to the athletes feedback as things progress.

I think the key is that you should be able to have a free conversation with someone upfront to set expectations so that you know what you are getting. If they aren't going to spend some time upfront with you, then you probably shouldn't hire them as a coach.

I would also say that I view and imperfect local training group as likely to be better than a perfect online coach. I would rather be with two or three other guys doing the same work out even if the workout is only 85% as good as a perfect workout that I have to do alone.

I think one of the keys to the 8k is remembering the race doesn't really start until 4-5k in, but after that you've got to be okay being pretty uncomfortable. It's an odd race in that the first mile or two doesn't have that crazy fast feeling the first mile of a 5k does, but the last mile still has that "This feels really fast I don't know if I can hold this all the way" feeling you get finishing a 5k. I'd let the first mile or two feel a little more comfortable than you're used to a race feeling, but the hurt's coming, so stay patient until at least halfway. After that, start putting yourself in the hurt locker.