Road Racing and Training Thread, Week Ending 1/28/18

Big miles Pappy! You know what you're doing, but it never hurts to hear it again from outsiders: take it slow on the mileage build and listen to your body

Big week for me, but some long term concerns arising

M - 12 easy

Tu - AM: 4 easy; PM: 6 easy

W - 4 x 3200 at 10:42 average w/2:00 passive rest

Th - 12 easy

F - 12 easy

Sa - 20 in the hills

Su - 12 easy

90 total

Workout was good and I got in my first 20 miler of the Boston cycle. Also got in only my 5th 90 mile week ever, so those were all good things.

My long term concern is hat I cramped violently after my long run yesterday, with big calves and one pec and lat locking up on my drive home. I'm still trying to figure out the cause, with dehtedrstion/electrolyte depletion and simple muscle fatigue being the obvious candidates. I'm leaning dehydration/depletion because of the upper body cramping. Also, when I woke up yesterday, I weighed 145. When I weighed myself after my run, I was down to 140 despite taking in 1 liter or more of water, 1 liter of Pedialyte, two bananas, a breakfast bar, and a 5 Hour Energy. So obviously I lost 8 plus pounds of fluids on my run (72 degrees, 15-18 mph winds).

Still, I can ignore the chronic muscle fatigue and increasing likelihood of cramping as we age. So I think I may need to look myself in the mirror and recognize that I may need to scale the overall volume back a touch. I planned 3 peak mileage weeks at 90, with the idea I'd go as high as 95 or 100 if I felt up to it. I now have one 90 mile week in, and will probably scale my next peak week back to 80-85, and the third to 80. I'll have to rely on the overall volume I've totaled over the last year plus.

38 yo male training for Boston MF Marathon

Goal = sub 2:40

M: 8 Miles easy

T: 8 w 20 x 1 min on / 1 min off

W: 8 easy

Th: 8 easy + dips and pull-ups

F: 8 easy

S: 22 Mile long run (7:08 per mile avg)

S: 13 easy

Total: 75 miles

This was my second week post houston half. Checked fartlek off the bucket list and got in my first 20+ miler in who knows how long. Legs felt better as the week went on though they are pretty tired right now. 11 weeks to Boston. It’s go time.

Yeah Smoove I know it was a lot but 60%+ of the runs were very easy and when my HR would go up I just lower the elevation on the treadmill. This week actually felt easier than when I was running mid 20 weeks and pushing.

I might try another big week before scrapping the plan. 20 miles on a warm windy days has to take a lot out of you. Dropping 8 pounds of water is a ton too. I lost 8 on my half but I'm like a camel compared to you. I remember as a kid the long runs at first would drain me until I got use to them. When you ate and drank after your run, did you eat any protein right after the run? I just read somewhere that protein can help a lot if eaten within 30 minutes of a workout. After the half I ran I ate 3 of the Nature Valley protein bars and was pleasantly surprised.

Pappy - good stuff but I'll also echo Smoove on being cautious.

Smoove- have you ever expiremented with hot shot for the cramping? I never have as I don't typically suffer from cramping, really only once many years ago when I was running Mayor's Marathon and running way above my fitness level. I know we tend to always look at hydration/electrolyte balance but maybe it's something else? With that said, that's some big water loss on a not terribly hot day.

AJ - good week. Already jealous of the Boston peeps but at least I get a solid 6 more weeks of training this year for my spring marathon

M- 7 moderate+ strides

T- am 3, pm 5

W- 7 w/ 4x1200, 90" rest. 4:10 avg in the 1200s + strides

T - 4 easy

F am 4 easy, pm 5 easy

S-7 w/ 3x(3x400) + strides. Sets were RP w/100 jog, RP -5 w/200 jog, RP -10 w/ 400 jog worked out about to 5:35, 5:30, 5:25 min miles roughly

S- am 7 easy, pm planned 5

Total- 57ish

Tuesday felt really good and was a definite confidence booster. Saturday was ok but not quite as smooth as I'd hoped. Then again it was mid 70s by the time I was wrapping up so I think the heat jumped the perceived effort.

Shooting for around 50 miles this week with a shorter, faster workout on Wednesday and then just some strides going into Sunday's 5k. Still no clue what to go out at for this race.

Pappy - Thanks for getting things started and glad to hear you're feeling better. Big week!

Smoove - Nice 4x3200, Just spitballing here, but do you think the hills contributed to your cramping? If I remember correctly you weren't running a lot of hills leading up to Houston and then a 20 miler might have been too much. I think the hills will help you come Boston but maybe ease into them?

AJ - Solid week, I'm excited to see your Boston buildup

WH - Good luck on your 5k.

M: 6 w/ 4x15-20" strides, 70", 2x50", 3x35" w/ jog back recovery. 1 mi to 800 effort. R calf felt good for start of workout, started to act up during 200s so I cut out 4x100 at the end of workout, strength after (jumps, med ball throw, 1 arm DB snatch, pull up/squat, rows/core)

T: 40' rowing and indoor bike, XC ski race was canceled for warm weather

W: 6 w/ (3x10", 30"), 3x10" flat sprints

Th: 6 w/ 2x3x10" flat sprints

F: 3 w/ 12' easy, drills, 4x100 stride/100 jog, 1 mi race 4:36 for 4th place!!!, then DNF'ed an 800 15 minutes later

S: Donated blood

S: 9, icy so this included some walking

Race Report: The first lap was trying to remember how to run in a crowd on an indoor track but it seemed to come back quickly. I tucked into a pack that hit 809 in 2:20, someone made a move from behind me ~700 in, I followed him and then swung made a move around him on the home straight with 800 to go. Felt like I was rolling the last 800 except the last 200 I couldn't quite pass 3rd place.

It was only 15 min from the 1 mi until the 800 started to I took off my spikes, did some leg swings & drills then put my spikes back on. I was still coughing (from dry indoor air) on the 800 starting line and my feet were killing me from indoor+spikes for the first time in months. Race started and the way my body was screaming at me I felt like I would be lucky to run mile pace for the 800 , figured I'd rather be able to walk the next day so I dropped out only 150m in. 2nd race I've ever DNF'ed which is disappointing but it was probably greedy of me to even start.

I'm super happy with negative splitting a 4:36, and going through 800 in 2:20 felt like I was in control. Big improvement on my 4:46 from July although I'm still a ways off my 4:28 PR.

Current plans going forward are to do some 5k-10k road racing in March-April and all-comers track meets 800-3k in June-July.

People on here have been reading my training for a while so I'd also appreciate advice if anyone has thoughts on my running.

I tasted the Hot Shot product at the Boston expo last year - it was appalling. But I've reached the point where I will try just about anything at this point.

I have run hills a bit before this week - just didn't mention it much. I've done two 18 milers out there.

The other obvious answer is that my muscles are spent from running beyond my fitness. Of course, who wants to believe that? But honestly, my training paces are all in line with the right perceived effort and consistent with what would be expected based on recent race performances. Plus, I keep coming back to my upper body cramping - hard for me to get past dehydration and depletion, but I also recognize that I prefer that answer over the fitness thing.

In any event, I'm going to back the mileage down just a touch as a concesssion to that possibility.

By the way, this is where I do all of my Boston long runs.

https://imgur.com/a/29UnA

Smoove - I am concerned about your situation, but not too concerned. You ran 20 miles in warm weather, and in high winds—a sustained 15-18 mph is high winds. So, your issue could be conditions-related, or a product of long-term Florida running. Coming out of cool weather, I can run a day or two or three in 60s without feeling any real impact. But once warmer temps set in for a while, 60s, 70s and higher, there is DEFINITELY a cumulative effect. I will continue to think about your issue, though.

Pappy - Nice mileage! Keep it up.

My week...

M: 11.13 at 6:35 overall...going 6:25, 6:29, 6:14, 5:44, 0:47 to finish...hilly and a nasty little wind

T: 12.25 at 6:37 overall...felt kind of so-so, but better toward the end...6:09, 6:08, 1:30

W: 8.75 at 6:39 overall...tough day at work...breezy with flurries...6:27, 6:28, 5:57, 4:40...hilly

T: 11.5 at 6:39 overall...cold but less wind...hilly...felt surprisingly good throughout, finishing 6:25, 6:17, 5:56, 2:58...a true progression, this run was very smooth and satisfying...zero strain

F: 10.5 at 6:42 overall...a little tired and went with what I felt

Sat.: 17.13 at 6:43 overall...eased into it with four low 7s, and then ran 13.13 with all splits 6:50 or better, finishing 6:34, 6:28, 6:39, 6:18, 6:15, 0:50 on my hilliest route...with some wind

71 miles

Ideally, I would have liked my long run to be 20 or so (with the marathon coming), but I had an appointment to keep on Sat. morning, and I made it just under the wire. Did a 20 two weeks ago and a 16 last week. Overall, I was faster last week, but I got in five double-digit runs (5 out of 6 runs) this week.

Have a great week, everyone!

Smoove - Those look like nice rollers—I would love to run them!

One other note about my week...while not a 20, my long run this week was a tad stronger than last week’s: 16.13 at 6:44 vs 17.13 at 6:43, and this week’s run felt smoother and better.

pewow - Congrats on the 4:36 and 4th—nice!

Pappy -- Nice week!

Smoove -- holy mackerel that sounds like a lot of water weight lost. I'd kill for all the benefit of a 90 mile week though (never have gotten above 50, and even that felt like it supercharged my running). Kudos.

Week 4 of build:

M -

T - 40 minutes at 8:53 pace (1.15 mpb)

W - 40 minutes treadmill at 9:08 (-10C + wind that day; looking at everyone else's Strava posts from the GTA region made me glad I decided to use treadmill, despite hating it. )

Th - 30 min stationary bike

F - 29 min at 9:13 on treadmill (tried out the gym's Woodway 4 model, and felt so much better than the normal treadmills. Also switched back to using orthotics and continued to do so through end of week. I'd stopped using them because I felt they had contributed to my ankle turn (from sitting too high in shoe), but tried again as I was feeling a lot of lower leg stress, like tense dorsiflexd muscles and craving more arch support. With orthotics felt a lot better)

S - 40 min at 8:20 pace

S - 54 min at 8:26 pace

Total: 23.4 miles

Towards end of week it started to feel like "real running" again, thankfully (however slow it may currently be, started to feel a lot smoother).

One decision I'll need to make is how conservative to be on the build. On the one hand, I was so miserable being injured it makes sense to go 10% a week and not rush things, particularly as I'm running with an extra 10-15 lbs of injury weight atm (trying to shed that quickly, will do some more biking to help with that). On the other, before I was injured (ankle turn) I had done a few 45 mile weeks and a 50 and felt fine physically and this week I felt fine physically, so perhaps a build of 28/33/40 could be fine. I'd love to break 5 before my 35th birthday in late May and maybe get close to 18 in some spring 5Ks, and if I spend 6 weeks building to 40/50 I think I'm going to run out of time on both of those.

A few people a couple of weeks ago asked about the "meters per beat" metric I track. I originally got the metric from Livingstone's Healthy Intelligent Training. He used it to tell his runners when they were ready for a workout again -- runs after a hard workout/long run the mpb would be lower as the body was recovering. When mpb got back to normal then the athlete was ready for another hard effort.

I use it for a different purpose: to track my aerobic fitness over time. As I built my mileage last spring, I started to run most runs a bit faster -- but it was hard to know if I was just pushing harder to chose those times or getting fitter. Of course, we know those things by feel and by race time, but I kind of like the ritual of getting out the calculator post-run, and hopefully seeing those numbers rise. I have found mpb to absolutely be lower when I'm fighting a cold or overtrained. Interestingly, my mpb hasn't dropped a ton from my pre-injury stats, yet my 5K time sure has moved up by 2-3 minutes. One theory on that is I've continued putting in a decent amount of work at 8 min pace, but haven't touched anything faster, so I can't clear acid very well.

Another fun thing I noticed is my mpb is off the charts in 5K races I run -- presumably because of the contribution of the anaerobic systems at those paces.

One caveat is that I think it's only useful to track over time, not compare people. I've calculated mpbs for a friend of mine (17m 5K guy) and some elites on Strava (the few who put HR data in), and he had a far higher mpb (his HR always stays very low even at high intensity).

Basically it's something I find fun/interesting, but not something I guide my training by.

angryjohnny: good week. A 22 miler wow. Great job.

Working Harder: good weak. I like the workouts.

outsiderunner: good week, what is your mile PR of late? 5:44 on Monday is moving.

pewow: Awesome job on the mile. Now I see why the DNF in the 800. I'd do the same. I still don't understand your training weeks. What are the " and ' meaning?

Pappy wrote:

pewow: Awesome job on the mile. Now I see why the DNF in the 800. I'd do the same. I still don't understand your training weeks. What are the " and ' meaning?

" is seconds and ' is minutes

Indoor track beats up my legs so I've been adapting my workouts to do on the bike path. Ex. Monday I wanted to do 400s, 300s, 200s which would take me roughly 70, 52 and 35 seconds so I round to 70, 50 and 35 seconds, and set a timer on my watch to beep when the rep is done.

Pappy - Thanks very much. Yes, that 5:44 on Monday felt good, too...a bit of a tailwind for it, but I was battling headwinds at various points throughout the 11 miles. SE and S winds are always the tougest along my routes, as then I get both the wind AND the uphills hitting me.

In any case, I had a 5:42 split on Dec. 19, and then a 5:40 split two days later on the 21st. Both were at the end of the run, and the 5:40 split was followed by a 2:51 final half mile, in which I got a “new record” mile time of 5:30.8 (which my watch flashed at the end of the run). Lately, I have added more weekly mileage and more double-digit runs, in prep for the marathon...though I would love to see a sub-5:30 pop up in the coming weeks.

All the best to you...

Pappy: happy to hear you’re feeling better and to see that 13.1 in there :)

Smoove: nice volume! I’ve had some cramps some days that I justness never had again and I could never figure out why. If you lost 8lbs of liquid dehydration and electrolyte depletion seem like a good bet, but maybe it was just a bad day too.

Pewow: congrats on the 1500m race, that was a great time, and don’t worry too much about the 800. A 15min gap between races is too tough.

OR: Nice week as always hehe you seem really strong lately.

I’m doing this from memory so I hope in didn’t forget anyone :)

Well, my week. I started following the Daniel’s 2Q program from week 11 this week but didn’t get the mileage it asked and likely won’t do the workouts next week as I’m in a ski station for a week.

Mo: 7.73km easy (raced 10k the day before)

Tue: 9.2km E + 5x(1km I w/2 min jg) (3:19 avg) + 4x(350 R w/350 jg) (64s avg) + 4.2km E

Wed: off (hamstring niggle)

Thu: 12k @ 4:24/km

Fri: 12km E + 5km T (3:38/km avg) +8km E

Sat: No running (travel to ski station. Planned on running after skiing but I hadn’t slept since Friday morning and was exhausted) but lots of skiing.

Sun: lots of skiing + 6km (in the soft snow and at 6900ft altitude)

Total: 46mi

I felt strong during the Tuesday workout. The 1k reps were really hard but I could do a few more. The 350m reps (my track is 350m) we’re actually fairly easy.

Thursday was a bit harder for me. The first 12 easy km and the 5 at T we’re fine, but then the last 3-4 were hard, my legs were really asking me to quit. I think it’s might’ve been cause I didn’t take in any water, electrolytes or calories, and I didn’t take my easy miles as easy as I should’ve, specially after the hard 5k I kept running 6:40’s or so.

Sunday was actually pretty hard too. Only 6k and averaging 5:30/km, but running on altitude and soft snow after skiing all day was really hard on the legs.

Cheers all, hope you have a nice week!

Hi all,

trying to get back at it after several years:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8640173

Had a 27 mi week - more than October this week combined.

No races planned yet, just dropping lbs, seeing how mileage progress. But, fall half for sure, hopefully full. We'll see!

Nice job everyone

Smoove wrote:

I was down to 140 despite taking in 1 liter or more of water, 1 liter of Pedialyte, two bananas, a breakfast bar, and a 5 Hour Energy.

Any chance the 5 Hour Energy is contributing to fluid loss, caffeine being a diuretic and all? Do you often cramp after long runs? Are you hydrating during the run, or was all the above taken before/after?

First week of my marathon build-up. I was sick last week and it carried over into the beginning of this week. Didn't get a quality session in until Thursday.

Sun - 8 easy

Mon - 10 easy

Tue - 12 easy

Wed - 6 easy

Thur - 6 x mile (1:00 rests), 5:19 avg

Fri - 8 am / 4 pm

Sat - 16 w/ last 10 @ ~6:00 avg

Total: 76 miles

Hi guys:)

Posted here a long time ago under a different nick and fell out of running and letsrun for a while and only really got back into it again last year. I got back to PR shape by years end but I had a slight achilles strain at the start of this month so I'm just starting to build back up again. Achilles is still bugging me mostly from the rubbing of my shoe against it but I cut off the back and it has given me enough relief to be able to run again. Slowly building up with the aim to run sub 3 in a late spring marathon. Some history, I used to be a fairly competitive regional middle distance runner back when I was a kid off of very limited training so I know I have some semblance of talent, how much is anyone's guess but the bigger issue for me is my work ethic. I had a big break from the sport when I was young and got back into it 4 years ago in my mid 20's but never managed to be consistent since with sizeable breaks between 2-3 month spells of training. This is something I'm trying to rectify right now.

Goals:

>3 hour Marathon(TBD)

Consistency

Set a building block

Week 1:

Monday: Off

Tuesday: Off

Wednesday: Off

Thursday: Off

Friday: 5 Miles(8:45)

Saturday: 4 Miles(8:39)

Sunday: 6 Miles(8:51)

Nothing exciting this week as I mentioned above, just trying to rebuild after a layoff. In fact, None of my training will be interesting:D as I want to do the simple aspects right first and see where those lead. There will be no big workouts or huge weekly mileage and I will go into this marathon underprepared from a specific standpoint. I do not mind that as my goal here is to get good conditioning for the future and improvements along the way will be welcome if they do come.

Could be that he caffeine has some impact. I did also have 4-5 beers the night before, but I followed that up with a liter of Pedialyte.

A little less than a liter of fluid was at he 10 mile mark, as was one of the bananas.

First time this happened to me was Chicago Marathon 2015. Then it started happening again at this exact same time last year in my Boston training cycle, forcing me to stop and stretch on the Friday of next week, and recurring a few times including at he Boston Marathon. In Chicago I had to stop 5 times from 21 on, Boston I lost count after it happened he first time at 18.

Smoove

Where is that??