Ranking WI collegiate distance programs

Please provide some data to substantiate the assertion that Milwaukee may be better than Madison.

Look at injury rates?

Jerry Shoemaker wrote:

Look at injury rates?

Agreed. Success isnt all about having two guys run fast. If Tagliapietra can join Milwaukee and run 3 seconds faster in the 1600 and 11 seconds faster in the 3200 in his first ever college races (assuming he redshirted cross but no one has ever confirmed) and there’s time dropping from other athletes I don’t see why an athlete who isn’t quite the “caliber” of Madison wouldn’t want to go to UWM. They’ve always had the scholarship edge to pull kids away from the WIAC but now they actually have the results and athletes to support it.

I haven't looked through all events but the Badgers are much better at the Mile, 3k, and 5k and the topic is Collegiate Distance Programs. Milwaukee's best distance guys wouldn't make the top 7 for the Badgers.

Predictor wrote:

I haven't looked through all events but the Badgers are much better at the Mile, 3k, and 5k and the topic is Collegiate Distance Programs. Milwaukee's best distance guys wouldn't make the top 7 for the Badgers.

But they would make it to the Start Line healthy!

Predictor wrote:

I haven't looked through all events but the Badgers are much better at the Mile, 3k, and 5k and the topic is Collegiate Distance Programs. Milwaukee's best distance guys wouldn't make the top 7 for the Badgers.

OK. Obviously the badgers are clearly better and would win every event convincenly. However, the argument that Mr Shoemaker and I are trying to make is the fact that the programs are shifting in different directions. What separates the two programs besides history? Both schools have 12.6 scholarships. Both schools have very nice facilities. Both schools cost about the same. The badgers cannot keep their guys healthy and can’t even keep their #1 runner in the US. If I was a top recruit I wouldn’t touch Uw with a 10 foot pole. Time will tell and the next 1-2 years are very big for both programs.

Additionsupport wrote:

Predictor wrote:

I haven't looked through all events but the Badgers are much better at the Mile, 3k, and 5k and the topic is Collegiate Distance Programs. Milwaukee's best distance guys wouldn't make the top 7 for the Badgers.

OK. Obviously the badgers are clearly better and would win every event convincenly. However, the argument that Mr Shoemaker and I are trying to make is the fact that the programs are shifting in different directions. What separates the two programs besides history? Both schools have 12.6 scholarships. Both schools have very nice facilities. Both schools cost about the same. The badgers cannot keep their guys healthy and can’t even keep their #1 runner in the US. If I was a top recruit I wouldn’t touch Uw with a 10 foot pole. Time will tell and the next 1-2 years are very big for both programs.

+1

Couldn't have said it better!

More important than top 10, who are the bottom 10?

Jerry Shoemaker wrote:

Additionsupport wrote:

OK. Obviously the badgers are clearly better and would win every event convincenly. However, the argument that Mr Shoemaker and I are trying to make is the fact that the programs are shifting in different directions. What separates the two programs besides history? Both schools have 12.6 scholarships. Both schools have very nice facilities. Both schools cost about the same. The badgers cannot keep their guys healthy and can’t even keep their #1 runner in the US. If I was a top recruit I wouldn’t touch Uw with a 10 foot pole. Time will tell and the next 1-2 years are very big for both programs.

+1

Couldn't have said it better!

Shoemaker and others have brought up a few great points that have been totally overlooked. A program should not be judged purely on its highest highs, but it should also be judged on its lowest lows and everything in between.

Wisco has the name, they have the history, hell they even have a couple current world level performers. But that place is a graveyard of broken talent.

Jerry's Recruits:

Craig Miller

Jack Bolas

Rob Finnerty

Mo Ahmed

Reed Connor

Maverick Darling

Elliot Krause

Landon Peacock

Alex Brill

Luke Rucks

Zach Mellon

Alex Hatz

Ryan Gasper

Transfers/Luck:

Ryan Collins

Brian Leung

Dan Chenoweth

McKena Ramos

Michael VanVoorhis

Burnouts:

Drew Shields

Matt McKenna

Tim Hucke

Zach Mellon

Jake Erschen

Austin Mudd

Sam Hacker

Michael Christianson

Ryan Kromer

Addison DeHaven

Jake McDermott

McKena Ramos

Kai Wilmot

Kyle Thompson

Nick Zander

Kyler Lueck

Daniel Laluzerne

Ryan Nameth

(probably missing a couple more)

Others have been severely injured and or are heavily underperforming. Mick has had some bright spots obviously, but it just doesn't look all that good when you compare it to the list of casualties and inherited talent.

Jerry did not recruit

Mo Ahmed

Reed Connor

Alex Brill

Alex Hatz

get it right1 wrote:

Jerry did not recruit

Mo Ahmed

Reed Connor

Alex Brill

Alex Hatz

Jerry was still the coach during the summer of 2008, believe me, he started recruiting those guys.

Since the group of guys who won the 2011 national title (Ahmed, Connor, Darling, Krause), and somehow transforming Van Voorhis from a Wisconsin Track Club runner to a sub 14/2nd place at Big 10s guy, Byrne hasn't been able to develop anybody. Hardy has not improved from his freshman season, Schrobilgen ran at the same level his last 3 years, and most of the other big recruits from 2014/2015 either transferred or have spent their entire careers injured. Morgan McDonald would have run well anywhere.

414 Runner wrote:

Burnouts:

...

(probably missing a couple more)

Carl Hirsch ran some decent times in college but after his 16-4x8 anchor in 1:48.8-32 triple victory at the 2012 state meet as a junior in high school I was convinced he was Olympic material. One of the more talented runners to come through the modern era. He still was and is a mega talent but if I understood things correctly he didn't even finish out his eligibility which is an absolute shame. He had it.

crazy legs hirsch wrote:

414 Runner wrote:

Burnouts:

...

(probably missing a couple more)

Carl Hirsch ran some decent times in college but after his 16-4x8 anchor in 1:48.8-32 triple victory at the 2012 state meet as a junior in high school I was convinced he was Olympic material. One of the more talented runners to come through the modern era. He still was and is a mega talent but if I understood things correctly he didn't even finish out his eligibility which is an absolute shame. He had it.

What exactly happened to Carl? He disappeared all of a sudden. I thought he was a great Badger runner.

This is 100% spot on. Thank you for differentiating high level performances versus being a good program. There are many factors involved when evaluating a program, but I think its important to look at three things to start. Health, development, and opportunities.

Wisconsin use to have a strong balance on all three of these factors. As you guys have pointed out, they are falling short in all three.

On the flip side, in a strange and unusual development, Milwaukee appears to be excelling at all three of these factors.

-Their kids all stay healthy

-They have all been getting significantly better each season

-And they have both the full 12.6 scholarships as well as a strong season schedule which includes meets at Notre Dame, Mt. Sac, Drake.

When you add those things up (and add any others, im sure they are excelling at those too) its no wonder why they are doing so well. I must say, I am pretty surprised. I mean, Corfeld is still their coach, so it leads you to wonder how they have been able to get some of these guys now, when they have never been able to before. I know they have had a pretty bad rep for being the school that kids go to for free education and then they slack off. Maybe schooling expenses have just gotten so far out of hand that parents of high quality runners wont allow their kids to walk on at Madison if they could get school paid for at Milwaukee. Or maybe the old dog has learned some new tricks. I don't know what it is exactly, but this isnt the same group of Panthers, they actually compete now.

FYI, just because DI schools can give out 12.6 full scholarships, doesn't mean that actually have the means to raise those funds. Maybe the reason that Milwaukee and Marquette haven't been able to get top talent is because they actually don't have that much money to pull kids in...

It seems that Milwaukee went from offering no scholarships to a few. Marquette just manages their scholarships poorly. They could turn into an elite distance program in 2 years if they went after great smart runners who could get 1/2 academically and 1/2 athletically.

Results from Marquette and Milwaukee from this weekend at the GVSU big meet

Marquette:

Eagan: 1:52.34 - PR

Peterson: 1:55.11 - PR

Aric Miller: 4:09.55 - 8:57.09 - Mile PR

Gross: 4:17.17 - PR

McClelland: 4:24.29 - PR

Pederson: 8:27.17 - PR

Burd: 8:41.56 - PR

Klaiber: 8:50.73

Mierzwa: 15:00.09 - PR

Barbour: 15:16.87 - Debut

Ryan: 15:27.56

Dvornik: 15:46.11

Urban: 15:47.88 - Debut

Bruch: 16:00.05 - Debut

Tiongson: 16:10.55 - Debut

Milwaukee:

Dueck: 1:54.97

Sippy: 1:55:69 - PR

McMillan: 4:10.47 - PR

Cotter: 4:12.32 - PR

Thorton: 8:49.84 - PR

Tagliapietra: 14:32.04 - Debut

Michalowski: 14:58.54 - PR

Brooks: 15:37.34

DMR: 9:55.12 (Alex Cotter, Kyle Becker, Drew Dueck, Terry McMillan)

Takeaways: Both teams with strong performances. I do not really understand why Miller doubled in the way that he did but Nelson must have some plan. Eagan ran a strong time and Pederson with a nice PR in the 3k. For Mil, McMillan and Cotter both with big PR's in the mile. Tagliapietra had a great debut in the 5k, handily winning the slow heat. Also a solid DMR time meaning that all their guys came back with strong second day performance. Milwaukee ran 8 and Marquette ran 15 athletes. Very comparable results.

So does this mean that Marquette and Milwaukee are currently better programs than Madison? Can anyone tell me if this has ever happened before? Sure seems like there are at least 3-4 programs that are seeing more consistency and success then the Badgers