ABro'sBro
Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 12:31PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Ok I'm a Senior in high school. My school's training during the season, like most high schools, is high intensity. Normal week consist of 2 Interval sessions per week (sometime we do 'special blocks' aka Hard workout am and pm.. Mile x4 @ 5k pace am / 2x(400x4) @ 95% 800 pace pm .. I hate these days.), 2 Easy/Progression days, 1 recovery run day, 1 "Long Run".

I did between 45-50 per week in season. "Long Runs" were 8-9 miles. I ran 15:24 for 5k in late October

Now during base training I'm doing 50-60 miles/per week with a day of cross training. Most runs are 8-9 miles in length. Easy runs with striders, fartleks, Hills.

Today I did my first 'Long Run' since July.. took it nice and easy and ran 12.2 mi in 1:33:50. This makes me wonder, for 3200/5k runners how important is one singular long run per week? Is it better to just put in 8-10 per day 6 days a week and have a cross training day or a day of just 3-5 miles OR 7-8 mi 6 days a week, 1 Long Run of 12-14, 1 recovery day of 3-5?

Help please
ABro'sBro
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 12:33PM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sorry for in-season training we do 2 Interval days, 1 Tempo, 1 "Long Run", 2 Easy/Progression, 1 recovery run day
Fluffy
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 12:34PM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Yes, eliminate the long run and supplement one of your cross training days for Xfit. With that you'll be able to get women AND run fast.

You can thank me later.
ABro'sBro
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 12:44PM - in reply to Fluffy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I do moderate, full body weight circuit twice per week. The women are already handled. Now I just need to run 9:15 in the 3200 in the spring.
watchout
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 12:50PM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Long runs aren't obsolete, but not every training program will include them. The shorter your races, the less important they become, but they can be beneficial for milers and above, or maybe even half milers and above (any race with a high aerobic demand).
SCIENCE!
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 2:34PM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You are getting a benefit from that Sunday (Because Sunday is the day of the long run, Saturdays and Mondays be damned) long run. It's worth doing, but with the intensity of your other days, I wouldn't push the pace. An easy 12-14 for a 3k/5k guy at your level is fantastic.
HRE
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/29/2012 5:46PM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It's not an either/or question. Overall mileage is the most important thing here, but there's no reason you can't run 80-10 miles most days AND do a longer run.
Learn from the best
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 12:47AM - in reply to HRE Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
http://www.runnerspace.com/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=36807&do=videos&video_id=54168

"The first three weeks are just mileage, with a few easy fartleks thrown in," says O'Brien. When the more organized workouts begin in July, they add repeats of 800m to 2 miles and zone runs, which are based on Joe Vigil's VO2 max charts. On the repeats, O'Brien says, "We'll start doing those at 85 percent of a guy's mile PR, then gradually increase that to 88, 91, and finally 94 percent." The zone runs are done at a lower percentage, and based on a runner's 3-mile best. For example, someone with a 3-mile PR of 15:00 does a 75 percent zone run at 6:00 per mile, whereas 85 percent results in a 5:40 pace. "It makes the math real easy for the kids," says O'Brien.

Five days a week the runners do doubles, logging up to 5 miles before 7:15 a.m. One day on the weekend they'll do a long run that reaches 16 miles by the end of the summer. Hill repeats are introduced around that time, run on a median strip up the nearby Santa Anita mountains.
http://www.runnersworld.com/high-school-profiles/arcadia-hs-preaching-gospel?page=single

It's not an either/or question. Overall mileage is the most important thing here, but there's no reason you can't run 80-10 miles most days AND do a longer run.[/quote]
The Animal Within
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 12:59AM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Id like to challenge you to change your thinking. Don't think of 12 milers as long runs. Think bigger: 18-23+ are long runs.

But I really think 12-14 miles is enough for developing adolescents in HS. The consistency of running 60 minutes per day is much more valuable.

And your hard workouts may seem mundane but when done right can get you to that 9:15.

Good luck.
coach d
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 1:18AM - in reply to Learn from the best Reply | Return to Index | Report Post


Three weeks later, on July 1, semi-official workouts begin under the auspices of O'Brien's Army, a USATF club. That continues for seven weeks until school practices begin the last week in August, three weeks before the first meet. Over those 13 weeks the Apaches log prodigious miles. The top 14 runners who will make up the varsity top 1,000 miles, with underclassmen and JVs running 800 to 900. Even the lowest-level runners are asked to do 650 miles.



This would appear to be a violation of CIF rules (out of season training), or at least questionable territory. I wonder if this is the reason why O'Brien is in trouble with his track coach--if it is just the track coach.
J.R.
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 1:24AM - in reply to coach d Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
How exactly would it be a violation of rules to run in the summer. If it were, I would run anyway.

All the guys at Wichita East and in the vicinity ran with Bob Timmons' Wichita Track Club in the summers.
watchout
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 1:37AM - in reply to J.R. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

J.R. wrote:

How exactly would it be a violation of rules to run in the summer. If it were, I would run anyway.

All the guys at Wichita East and in the vicinity ran with Bob Timmons' Wichita Track Club in the summers.


Many states have down periods when coaches cannot coach their teams.
. . .
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 9:28AM - in reply to ABro'sBro Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
1 hr monday - saturday
90 minutes sunday
Coopington
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 11:34AM - in reply to Learn from the best Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Learn from the best wrote:

http://www.runnerspace.com/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=36807&do=videos&video_id=54168

"The first three weeks are just mileage, with a few easy fartleks thrown in," says O'Brien. When the more organized workouts begin in July, they add repeats of 800m to 2 miles and zone runs, which are based on Joe Vigil's VO2 max charts. On the repeats, O'Brien says, "We'll start doing those at 85 percent of a guy's mile PR, then gradually increase that to 88, 91, and finally 94 percent." The zone runs are done at a lower percentage, and based on a runner's 3-mile best. For example, someone with a 3-mile PR of 15:00 does a 75 percent zone run at 6:00 per mile, whereas 85 percent results in a 5:40 pace. "It makes the math real easy for the kids," says O'Brien.

[/quote]

He says it makes the math easy for the kids, but I fail to see how 75% of 5:00 race pace could possibly be 6:00. 5:00 is 83% of 6:00, or 6:00 is 120% of 5:00. He's closer, but still off by a few percent on the other one (5:00 is 88% of 5:40, or 5:40 is 113% of 5:00).
I hate that his math is spoken incorrectly/backwards, too. Why do coaches do this? He doesn't have kids run at 85, 88, 91, or 93% of their mile PR pace; conversely, their mile PR pace is that percentage of their training pace.
Sorry to get off topic, but he says it keeps it simple for his athlete, but it's simply not correct math.
The Animal Within
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 1:51PM - in reply to watchout Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The only CIF governed sport in summer is football.

Some sections (that is esentially a region in CA) have implemented a dead week before the start of the season. You are allowed to condition (run) but not do technical work (analyze form, etc.).

You are allowed to condition all summer but it cannot be mandatory or determine who makes the team. In other words a faster kid who didn't train all summer makes the team over a slower kid who did. But since most XC teams are non-cut this is not an issue.
SoConnFann
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/30/2012 4:02PM - in reply to The Animal Within Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

The Animal Within wrote:

Id like to challenge you to change your thinking. Don't think of 12 milers as long runs. Think bigger: 18-23+ are long runs.

But I really think 12-14 miles is enough for developing adolescents in HS. The consistency of running 60 minutes per day is much more valuable.

And your hard workouts may seem mundane but when done right can get you to that 9:15.

Good luck.


Well if he's only doing in the 50-60 mi range then 25% of weekly mileage is 12.4-15 miles so that is plenty long. 90-105min Long Runs should be good for him
socal xc
RE: Are Long Runs obsolete? 12/31/2012 10:13AM - in reply to coach d Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

coach d wrote:
This would appear to be a violation of CIF rules (out of season training), or at least questionable territory. I wonder if this is the reason why O'Brien is in trouble with his track coach--if it is just the track coach.


"The first three weeks are just mileage, with a few easy fartleks thrown in," says O'Brien"

The first three weeks are the dead period weeks when he's not there. He talks about those at his clinics. I guess the kids organize practice on their own for three weeks