Joe:
So is 2 x 6 x 200 at 1500 pace counted as a "workout" or speed-maintenance?
Is this "workout" part of the "2 hard workouts per week" or should we add this workout to that week? Making it 3 during base training.
Joe:
So is 2 x 6 x 200 at 1500 pace counted as a "workout" or speed-maintenance?
Is this "workout" part of the "2 hard workouts per week" or should we add this workout to that week? Making it 3 during base training.
The Banned Joe Rubio wrote:
40 min easy, 2 x 6 x 200 at 1500 pace or 3 x 4 x 300 at 1500 or 2 x 3 x 400 at 1500. This was most weeks in the Fall and Winter of 1999-2000 for both Lunn and Matt. I never had guys do that in the fall or winter, maybe starting in late Feburary, so I wanted to figure out why.
Joe
I would like to give an example of myself. Now, I am no world-class runner, and I don't have a lot of talent. Almost every coach I had told me that. However, I regularly beat runners who supposedly had more potential than myself. I strongly feel that the reason for this was by doing interval type workouts year round.
All my coaches told me to stay away from speed in the winter or summer before the racing season started. They always said, "just work on your base", or "you will get burned out or injured if you do speed year round".
Thanks for my independant or stubborn thinking, I secretly went to the track during the off season to do 200's and 400's. My goal was to PR on the first track race of the season. I didn't fear about burning out, because more improvements would come during the season from getting into race shape. Here was my 1600 meter progression in highschool.
Freshman: 4:49
Sophmore: 4:34
Junior: 4:25
Senior: 4:12
Nothing spectacular, but it was enough to get me a full scholarship, and a degree for free. There was no way that I could have hit those times without the year round balanced approach I took.
Check out the log of Dan Henderson, who did interval work every day, usually after a 10 mile run in the A.M. I hope to post more of his logs when I have a chance to transcribe:
http://www.bunnhill.com/BobHodge/TrainingLogs/dhenderson83.htm
Thanks Tinman, i´m very pleased that you praise me so much.
Since last time that you said that i was "out of control" that´s a major improvement i did the cure and the treatement over that terrible disease - but that didn´t include to post in other sites.
When you say "Cabral or his friends" this realy hounours me. Since other guys in this Forum they put me side-by-side with the world´s best coaches - something i really don´t deserve - now you say that i´m the leader of a friends group that says that experience that´s better than science -i hope that friends are Renato, Joe, Andrew, and many more etc.
Many thanks to put me on the top. One day i will be quoted in scientific studies, or i will go to the "Wall of Fame".
Racer1 wrote:
Many, MANY other programs are some variation of the Lydiard system.
The concept of base building, by and large, is that of Lydiard.
So while his system has been refined, the fundamentals of his approach are far from outdated and deserve more respect.
Racer1, perhaps you do not appreciate the true power of your argument. Try this:
Demonstrandum: Training Program X is based on Lydiard fundamentals
Postulate: running is fundamental in the Lydiard program
Postulate: Program X involves running.
Ergo, Program X is based on Lydiard fundamentals. QED.
Now I know someone who thinks:
1. Most other training programs bear only a token similarity to Lydiard's system
2. The concept of base building did not originate with Lydiard and is not unique to Lydiard.
How are we to disabuse this poor sod of his obviously mistaken views?
whether by inspiration or independent invention, most programs have inherent similarities to Lydiard. The rules are so basic that most other programs are variations or refinements.
many coaches are scared to include intensity work during the off season -- they think that they're going to burn you out. It all depends on how you cut it.
They think that all forms of intensity are forbidden during base phases, lest they destroy the runner.
I think the best and most ideal programs (in general) are those in which you touch on all energy systems year round. Again, it all depends on how you cut it. If it's your off season and you're running 90mpw, you can do 4-5x2 miles @ HM-Mpace one day, and then do 20x200m @ goal 1500m pace w/ 90s rest two days later and you're just doing good stuff.
But remember, most coaches (I believe) aren't willing to learn anything knew, do the work to plan seriously for their athletes, or admit that they don't really know what they're doing. You've got a few coaches on this board (and on this thread) who really know what they're doing and recognize what worked and what didn't, and don't JUST blame the athlete for poor performances. Unfortunately, I fear that ideal to far too rare in American coaching.
scepticus wrote:
Racer1, perhaps you do not appreciate the true power of your argument. Try this:
Demonstrandum: Training Program X is based on Lydiard fundamentals
Postulate: running is fundamental in the Lydiard program
Postulate: Program X involves running.
Ergo, Program X is based on Lydiard fundamentals. QED.
Now I know someone who thinks:
1. Most other training programs bear only a token similarity to Lydiard's system
2. The concept of base building did not originate with Lydiard and is not unique to Lydiard.
How are we to disabuse this poor sod of his obviously mistaken views?
Does obscuring the point in a logic puzzle elevate your own in any way?
I might rephrase your question: How do we suggest to Mr. scepticus that he brush up on his reading about distance running?
trackhead wrote:
whether by inspiration or independent invention, most programs have inherent similarities to Lydiard. The rules are so basic that most other programs are variations or refinements.
Ok, I think we agree. Lydiard programs have inherent similarities to most other programs. The rules are so basic that the Lydiard program is a variation or refinement.
Antonio:
I really do want our conversations to be civil and at times they have been full of emotion that has gone too far in the direction of non-productive. My apologies for being juvenile in some cases. I should not respond or post when it is late or I am tired. It is possibly a persecution complex from my youth, I don't know, but I will try to work on taking things less personal and more positive.
I do appreciate your contributions, and I know that your heart is in the right place. I do compliment you in earnest. Theere is nothing fake about it. I respect Renato too and handful of coaches that post on here. I want them to know that they do make a difference too.
The funny thing is, I come from a combination background of sports and science and so my science is my tool used to explain what I have experienced or witness as a coach. But, when we get down to it, the core of my ideas about what is a good way to train athletes is based upon intuition and observation. Like you, I read about runners and their training plus talk to a lot of coaches and athletes to obtain their observations and impressions. History is interesting and provides a lot of information if one is willing to slow down and carefully consider what happened. Humility is a good attibute of wise people and it is in anyone's best long-term interest to overcome pride. I will swallow mine as best I can.
By the way, people like Trackhead may be young but they too have some good ideas. One of the things I like about trackhead is he has a sincere appreciation for history. He recognizes that some very dedicated people like you, Malmo, Mike Platt, Jack Daniels, Renato Canova, HRE, Kim Stevenson, and bunches of others have worked hard to obtain their knowledge via sweat and agony. I think that good ideas are good ideas, no matter who brings them up in conversation.
My grandfathers had only 8th grade education, going to work full-time by age 14, but in my eyes they were smart guys who learned a lot of truth and lessons the hard way. I looked up to them with deep admiration and respect. It didn't matter that they had little formal education. Life taught them lessons and they were willing to learn. Two of my uncles were big-wigs in the professional world, one a judge and one an vice president of huge corporation with PhD and adoration from a lot of people, but I don't think either one is anymore wise than my father who has only an high school education and is still working a labor job at age 67. My mom was a average student in high school and a common labor person, but she cared about people so much that one could define her as smart about the issues of the heart, love, compassion, caring. We all know people like that; smart about things without formal education on the matter.
Thanks you for hanging in there with me. It has been a journey, like a race, full of hills to climb.
Take care and keep sharing, please, your thoughts on training. Sincerely, Tinman
Would you like to hazard a guess as to what the point of the logic puzzle was?
Might we suggest that if Racer1 were to brush up on his reading about distance running he might find that Lydiard did not invent base building?
Might Racer1 find that there are many,many programs which which were not inspired by Lydiard?
Hint: you might want to read about programs that existed before Lydiard.
Please share information about the programs you mentioned. Perhaps we can learn from them. Tinman
Nice improvements. Reminds me of Glenn Cunningham Jr who ran 4:43, 4:33, 4:23, and 4:13 his four years of high school in Kansas.
Foster wrote:
Joe:
So is 2 x 6 x 200 at 1500 pace counted as a "workout" or speed-maintenance?
Is this "workout" part of the "2 hard workouts per week" or should we add this workout to that week? Making it 3 during base training.
It's the second primary workout of the week, not an additional one. So for us, we generally will go with one of those 1500 paced lighter guys on Wed every other week, usually alternate it each week with hill reps. The Sat workout would normally be a tempo run most weeks, then adding 400's at 5k pace alternating weeks on Saturday in Feb. Remember, we are focusing on higher mileage at decent paces as the primary emphasis during the time we're doing these shorter 1500 paced reps, so these "workouts" aren't the main emphasis, just a secondary, development one with the goal to maintain familiarity with 1500 pace, also to get the kids used to a weekly schedule of a "workout" on particular days each week. I usually ask for 2 other runs per week during this time to be of a longer nature with the pace somewhere in the 75-80% of 5k pace range. Not strictly speaking, I just ask them to time a mile during the run and report back to me so I can tell them to slow it down or pick it up the next time out. Similar to what the Buffs are reported to do. They tend towards 85% of VO2max on their 20% weekly long runs and 15% mid week longer runs which is near marathon race pace for many, which is humping. We usually go 75%, maybe 80% for the later miles of the long run and the same for the later stages of the mid week run. Same length runs for us as the Buffs, just a few notches less intense. The weekly or biweekly tempos we do are at 85-90% of 5k and go from 20-40 minutes in length.
Joe
e-
Thursdays in 3/1-5/1 would be more like 60-75 min on weeks without a race and the 75-80% isn't set in stone, it's if the athlete feels strong and it's not that big of a deal to get it done. Also the rotation of the 3k-10k is similar to what Silva does, also what Coe has in his book with Dr Martin. Emphasis is on VO2max development with efforts at 90-100% VO2max:
wk 1. 2 x 3k at 10k-1/2 marathon effort(maybe just a 4 mile tempo)
wk 2. 3 x 2k at 10k or 4 x 1600 at 10k
wk 3. 6 x 1k at 5k
wk 4. 6 x 800 at 3k
Wk #5: Start above rotation over
If there's a race that takes the place of the above workout or maybe we replace the Wed workout with one of the above.
5/1-7/1 is really dependent on the race schedule. I don't stick to that exact workout rotation, I do it based largely on race schedule and what the athlete likes to do the week of a big race, what they have confidence in doing. If the athlete has say Cardinal Invite on 5/14, then that's a chance at making USATF's or a PR, so the schedule would be tweaked a bit something like this with a bust butt 1500 effort 10 days before the big day and progressively more recovery heading into the big race:
5/2: 800 pace. 2 x 2 x 400, 60 sec btw each, 5 min btw sets.
5/4: 3-4 x 800 at 1500 pace or maybe 3-4 x 600 at 1500/100 jog/300 at 800.
5/7: 2-3 x 400 at best effort
5/11: 200-300 acceleration
5/13: Strides
5/14: 1500
Strides. Really Mondays will be an easy 40 min recovery jog followed by light strides at roughly 800 effort. Maybe some acceleration type 120's on the diagonal of a football field barefoot with a walk across recovery. Just light, quick, fresh and fun to loosen up, not really to work on all out speed. Still for a 1500 runner doing these, the speed will most likely be 800 pace or even faster. They just like to run fast. Volume will be say 8-10 x 100 or 6-8 x 120 on grass.
Joe
Purdue Grad wrote:
This is a very interesting debate. I have always thought VO2, threshold science ... but that is what I started reading first.
Purdue Grad and also Wello
Since this debate about short reps it starts i try to understand the source of our disagreement - thiose who defend that we may use that reps earlier in the season and those that say we don´t. Actually i think that more than a technical disagreement that have to do with our diferent concepts. You Purdue Grad you got the point. Ther´s those that think mainly about VO2 pace; threshold pace, anaerobic pace, aeobic pace, steady state. And from those definitions they buiild their own system. In that class are most of the americans. When they say fater than 3000m pace - they want to say anaerobic pace, independently if the runner that´s a 1500m runner or a marathon runner, and independently of what´s the runner 3000m PB or estimate 3000m PB in the moment of consideration. Whe they think 5000m pace they think that 800m pace that´s more anaerobic than 5000m pace. And they are right, BUT you can train in 5000m pace for 4000m or 2X2000m or 4X1000m all with 3min. intervals - a total distanc of 4000m, and you can train in 1500m pace in short reps with a less lactic acid acumulation if you do 80X50meters reps with a 200m jog pause in the same 3 minutes.
I hardly undrestand why you keep on saying that short reps faster than race pace are harder than long reps in race pace target distance. In more than 30 years of running experience if you ask a runner in any moment whats easy and whats harder short set reps (a bit faster than rece pace) or long set reps (close to race pace) - Rui Silva, Carlos Lopes, Albero Chaiça - evryone portuguese runners they say that´s shorter are the easy ones. If you eventually ask to Rui Silva, Rui you have the option, do you want o do 10X400m=4kilos total in 55sec (thus faster than 1500m race pace) with 1 min interval or do you want to do 4X1000m=the same total 4kilos in 57sec by lap (2:22) close to race pace with 10-12min rest, with no margin of doubt that he will say that he wants to do the 400m reps faster than race pace because that´s easier to do than 4X1000.
Ask any portugues runner he will tell you the same, that faster than race pace that´s easier.
That´s an example but i should go on and on. I hope that you will be able to undrestand that out logic that´s opposite to paces according physiologic demands. That´s to reverse the aerobic versus anaerobic concept.
That´s the reason why we start early in the season with short reps. that´s because they are the SUPPORT PACE for the utimate in tne SPECIFICS - long reps in race pace.
If we take a beginner runner, or if we try to get back a runner that comes from an injury, we start his specifics workouts by Lt training of course - the SUPPORT PACE UNDER race pace, and later on we focus in the race pace long reps when we feel that the shape condition did improve.
As to say te short reps are no more than an intro to long reps, and are not so anaerobic as that, as tinman very well post in the past that 20X200m for 26s or El Guerrouj that´s not quite anaerobic, and that´s not pur speed either, that´s simple speed endurance - to repeat the same fast distance several times. To speak in tremendous anaerobic paces called LACTIC training that´s to train max.pace for that set distance as when Rui do 1000m does 2:22-2:25. That´s all out ! not 10X400m in 55-56s or 12X300m in 37 sec.
Short reps are mainly used for beginners, not for experient runners or to train lactic efffect or speed. For those who aren´t able YET to do 1000m/mile/1500m/2000m reps in race pace then one solution may be to put that pace (just a bit faster than race pace) using short reps and trying to reduce the interval (and made them active) (Just at sea level !) and expand the nunber of sets/total distance. that´s no more no less that the cut off interval logic - to divide in little pieces to make that easier. Technical (in the terrain) we see that´s benefical to run that short reps a bit faster than race pace - let´s say 101% to 105% or 107/110% race pace from target distance if you are in a good shape - late season and that you still use that short reps as a support (IN SPEED/INTENSITY) for the race pace specifics. Besides those who do too much competition or too much Lt in continuous runs they need to change quite a lot from training model in the specifics - as physical as phychological.
But in a more technical debate i can report more details how that is done.
I like what you wrote, Antonio. The idea of running shorter reps to prepare for longer, more race specific stress reps is something that a couple of good coaches I recall did. First, Bill Bowerman like doing short reps and increasing the volume over the off-season, then once the athlete leveled off at a number reps, say 20 x 200, he would decrease the rest a bit. Then, as the pre-season apporached he would move on to longer reps at closer to race pace, doing more and more goal race pace reps as the weeks went by and as the time to run the season big meet became closer and closer.
Peter Coe's, father to Seb, talked about using repetition 200s after SEb had sickness or injury, so that he could build Seb's strength back. Then,after a handful of these sessions, he moved Seb to longer repetitions like repeat 800s or short recovery sessions at race pace. The idea was to build enough speed-strength to then follow up with speed endurance and race specificity.
Does this follow along with what you are saying, Antonio? Tinman
Tinman wrote:
Antonio:
...My apologies for being juvenile in some cases. I should not respond or post when it is late or I am tired. It is possibly a persecution complex from my youth, I don't know, but I will try to work on taking things less personal and more positive....
Sincerely, Tinman
I accept your apologies in open heart and in the name of "running passion" that same running passion that made me to spend my time writing posts about the training debate.
May i have 3 comments? Thanks
First, to be sincere as usual you did dream that your “LT is 330 x 1.08 = 356.4 seconds or 5:56.4” formula that would be the Einstein E=Mc2 of the lactate threshold, that one day we will see runners with a t-shirt with “LT= 330 x 1.08”, but for your misery that willn´t.
Secondly, i think that you did a great step in humility posting what you did post. Now i sincerly think that the last final courageous step will be to start to post by your own name and identity. Why you should be afraid? But meanwhile you may not look for the name/identity or nickname of the guy that posts - just his trainig ideas, because i think that you are too much confined to names JK, Jack Daniels, Bill Bowerman, Trackhead, Antonio and so.
And that´s it that creates you a condition that you think more in the person that in his own ideas.
Third. People like Renato, Joe, Malmo etc. why do you think they post here? I guess that´s not by money or by fame or self expression, but mainly bu GENEROSITY and MENTALITY. They do passion for running sport, despite a few of them they are professional coaches. The take their time to share ideas and participate. For me they were very generous.
Great Tinman is back, there is no action at run-insight! :)