Dave Moorcroft of GBR essentially soloed 13:00 back in 1982, without pacemakers I'm pretty sure. I'm wondering how fast he would've been with today's paced competition, high/low training, and fellow competitors capable of going just as fast?
Dave Moorcroft of GBR essentially soloed 13:00 back in 1982, without pacemakers I'm pretty sure. I'm wondering how fast he would've been with today's paced competition, high/low training, and fellow competitors capable of going just as fast?
12:53.72.
Next?
Doesn't answer your question, but interesting if you are a fan.
Thanks for your market posts.
Sagarin wrote:
Dave Moorcroft of GBR essentially soloed 13:00 back in 1982, without pacemakers I'm pretty sure. I'm wondering how fast he would've been with today's paced competition, high/low training, and fellow competitors capable of going just as fast?
When he ran that race, I was just starting to be familiar with records and names of famous runners of the day. What he did that day was AMAZING. The others let him go because they figired he could NOT keep that pace up, but he did. He chopped off a big chunk that day.
I believe the lead pack thought he was a pacemaker & had pulled out.
No. 2 guy thought he had won.
And he was never able to break 13;30 after running 13;00.
Do not be surprised if Ritz never runs faster than 12;56.
He was also pretty much a walking criple when he ran 13:00.
Not surprising that he never regained that form.
A walking cripple?
Moorcroft had an incredible purple patch for just two months.
He ran a 3.49.34 mile in June of 82 and with the 13 minute 5000 in July of that year, he also ran a 7.32.79 3000 in the same month.
And that was it.
He did, I recall, run (still?) the fastest long leg in the 12 stage national road relay in the spring of that year which gave an indication of a good winter’s build-up
Add to your list:
Slighly faster tracks
Not working a job and running
Improvement in all areas of training knowledge
Often omitted is the phsycologial effect on knowing what was possible. Like whan Said came along he is going to think 'I'll break 13' - but if he set off at 12:45 pace he is undoubtably going to back off
I don't know what time DM would run now, but his time from nearly 30 years ago does show that Europeans should be running a lot faster now. That run of Ritz should be a launch pad for others to follow and run even faster. Its a numbers game though the EA's have 30 runners in that range. a certain % are going to drop off, get injured whatever thay still have 10 left under the 13 barrier
Before I saw that Rupp guy in the WC's I thought he was overated. Even though he died a bit, there was ease about his running which looked to me like on his day he could run fast times
You might not defeat Bekele but some of those other guys up there are beatable
Add to your list:
Slightly faster tracks
Not working a job and running
Improvement in all areas of training knowledge
Often omitted is the physiological effect on knowing what was possible. Like when Said came along he is going to think 'I'll break 13' - but if he set off at 12:45 pace he is undoubtedly going to back off
I don't know what time DM would run now, but his time from nearly 30 years ago does show that Europeans should be running a lot faster now. That run of Ritz should be a launch pad for others to follow and run even faster. It’s a numbers game though the EA's have 30 runners in that range. A certain % are going to drop off, get injured whatever they still have 10 left under the 13 barrier
Before I saw that Rupp guy in the WC's I thought he was overrated. Even though he died a bit, there was ease about his running which looked to me like on his day he could run fast times
No to 2012 wrote:
A walking cripple?
Moorcroft had an incredible purple patch for just two months.
He ran a 3.49.34 mile in June of 82 and with the 13 minute 5000 in July of that year, he also ran a 7.32.79 3000 in the same month.
And that was it.
He did, I recall, run (still?) the fastest long leg in the 12 stage national road relay in the spring of that year which gave an indication of a good winter’s build-up
His purple patch lasted more than months - it was the whole year. He ran all his PBs in 1982
800 1:46.64 5th Crystal Palace AAA Championships 25 Jul 82
1500 3:33.79 1st Hengelo, NED FBK 27 Jul 82
Mile 3:49.34 3rd Oslo, NOR Bisl 26 Jun 82
3000 7:32.79 1st Crystal Palace EvESP,JPN,KEN 17 Jul 82
2Miles 8:16.75 1st Crystal Palace Talbot 20 Aug 82
5000 13:00.41 1st Oslo, NOR OsloG 7 Jul 82
10K 28:09 1st Cleveland OH, USA Revco 16 May 82
He also ran 24.27 for the course record at Sutton Park in April - still stands
Gold Commonwealth Games 5000m (October)
1. Dave MOORCROFT (ENG) 13.33.00
2. Nick ROSE (ENG) 13.37.97
3. Peter KOECH (KEN) 13.36.95
Bronze European Championships (September)
1. Thomas WESSINGHAGE (FRG) 13.28.90
2. Werner SCHILDHAUER (GDR) 13.30.03
3. David MOORCROFT (GBR) 13.30.42
These are the factors a lot of let'srunners forget. They seem to think that Moorcroft or Viren or Pre would run the same times they ran.
It's amazing how far we've come.
I always tell the story of me in 8th grade- my father basicakky forcing me to eat steak and eggs the morning of a race. I ran horribly. My coach asked me waht I ate, when I told him hesaid, "Well, that's not what bothered you." Within a couple years we knew that was wrong.
We trained hard every day- hard easy was a new, unproven concept.
Shoes were cheap nylon with a sole that wore out and we put Shoe Goo on them instead of buying a new pair.
Things were different back then.
I ran in one of the Revco Cleveland 10k's back in the '80's. I remember Lasse Viren placing 3rd in the race. I wonder if it was the same year Moorcroft won...
Bazza wrote:
His purple patch lasted more than months - it was the whole year. He ran all his PBs in 1982
800 1:46.64 5th Crystal Palace AAA Championships 25 Jul 82
1500 3:33.79 1st Hengelo, NED FBK 27 Jul 82
Mile 3:49.34 3rd Oslo, NOR Bisl 26 Jun 82
3000 7:32.79 1st Crystal Palace EvESP,JPN,KEN 17 Jul 82
2Miles 8:16.75 1st Crystal Palace Talbot 20 Aug 82
5000 13:00.41 1st Oslo, NOR OsloG 7 Jul 82
10K 28:09 1st Cleveland OH, USA Revco 16 May 82
He also ran 24.27 for the course record at Sutton Park in April - still stands
Gold Commonwealth Games 5000m (October)
1. Dave MOORCROFT (ENG) 13.33.00
2. Nick ROSE (ENG) 13.37.97
3. Peter KOECH (KEN) 13.36.95
Bronze European Championships (September)
1. Thomas WESSINGHAGE (FRG) 13.28.90
2. Werner SCHILDHAUER (GDR) 13.30.03
3. David MOORCROFT (GBR) 13.30.42
April-October then, mostly June-July
factsonly wrote:
And he was never able to break 13;30 after running 13;00.
Do not be surprised if Ritz never runs faster than 12;56.
What worries me about Ritz is that the training could get "too intense" with the group they've assembled (Ritz has proven to be injury prone) in Portland, and no one knows what the long-term physiological impact of the "simulated sherpa tent living." I'm not saying he won't go on to do great things, and I think Salazar has a handle on this, but it kind of reminds me of Webb. Webb dropped his AR in the mile and incredible 800 AFTER building a monster base (for him) and has done nothing notable since.
That's why I'd agree that Ritz needs to strike while the iron's hot, because one never knows. Just ask Josh McDougal. Having said that, it sounds as though Ritz isn't shifting focus from the half and full marathon distance, and I think Salazar as much conceded that Hudson's base building contributed enormously to this season. And that's a good thing. I sure wish there was a 10k in Brussels next week, though Rits'z legs have got to be tired.
Anyhow, I think Moorcroft would have run 12:52ish, and perhaps under 12:50 with the perfect conditions and EPO boost.
In fact, I still consider Moorcroft's solo 13:00 some 27 years ago the best non-African effort even now. I am absolutely certain he was a sub-12:55 guy, even back then, if he had high/low training and competition/pacers to run with.
oh yeaaaa wrote:
Bazza wrote:His purple patch lasted more than months - it was the whole year. He ran all his PBs in 1982
800 1:46.64 5th Crystal Palace AAA Championships 25 Jul 82
1500 3:33.79 1st Hengelo, NED FBK 27 Jul 82
Mile 3:49.34 3rd Oslo, NOR Bisl 26 Jun 82
3000 7:32.79 1st Crystal Palace EvESP,JPN,KEN 17 Jul 82
2Miles 8:16.75 1st Crystal Palace Talbot 20 Aug 82
5000 13:00.41 1st Oslo, NOR OsloG 7 Jul 82
10K 28:09 1st Cleveland OH, USA Revco 16 May 82
He also ran 24.27 for the course record at Sutton Park in April - still stands
Gold Commonwealth Games 5000m (October)
1. Dave MOORCROFT (ENG) 13.33.00
2. Nick ROSE (ENG) 13.37.97
3. Peter KOECH (KEN) 13.36.95
Bronze European Championships (September)
1. Thomas WESSINGHAGE (FRG) 13.28.90
2. Werner SCHILDHAUER (GDR) 13.30.03
3. David MOORCROFT (GBR) 13.30.42
April-October then, mostly June-July
He finished fourth in the National X/C too in March
you're right of course that June and July were pretty stella months - but then the track season is inherently short.
for info
Moorcroft's training in lead up to his WR
June 27: am 10m steady
June 28: am 7m steady, pm 10m steady
June 29: am 5m steady, pm 1 x 1,000m 2.29, 8 x 300 ave time 40secs
June 30: am 7m steady
July 1: am 7m steady, pm 5m fast
July 2: am 5m steady, pm 7m steady
July 3: am 8m steady, pm 7m 'quite fast'
Total 84 miles
July 4: am 14m steady, pm 5m steady
July 5: am 5m steady, pm 5m steady
July 6: pm 5m steady in Oslo
July 7: am 2-3m very steady jog, pm 5550m 13.00.41
July 8: am 10m steady
July 9: am 5m steady, pm 5m steady
July 10: am 5m steady, pm 5m steady
Total 72 miles
should read 5000m 13.00.41 - obviously :)
The guy ran a sub-3:50 mile. And with the exception of Mottram, I don't believe any other "white dude" who has broken or come close to breaking 13:00 had that kind of raw speed.