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ouchhh
how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 2:54PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Did a 22 miler at a slow steady pace which was easy aerobically. However surprisingly my quads still kill the next day. I assume that is lactic acid.

1) Anyway to expedite getting rid of that soreness?

2) Did I do something wrong? I usually don't have this problem? Perhaps I went too fast? Not enough fuel? I did have a high mileage week.
lease
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 3:11PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ouchhh wrote:

Did a 22 miler at a slow steady pace which was easy aerobically. However surprisingly my quads still kill the next day. I assume that is lactic acid.

1) Anyway to expedite getting rid of that soreness?

2) Did I do something wrong? I usually don't have this problem? Perhaps I went too fast? Not enough fuel? I did have a high mileage week.

My degree isn't in physiology, so we'll have to wait for those folks to weigh in. However, maybe some more info would help them:

Are your quads *heavy* (not necessarily a surprise, finishing a high-mileage week with a 22-miler), or are they *sore*?

Was the 22-miler yesterday (looks like it, from your post)? What did you do the day before that (soreness in the quads often shows up two days later)?

Were you doing any hard hills, yesterday or the day before?

Did you finish the 22-mile run slower than you started it? Did you run it significantly slower than your normal easy pace? (Either of those sometimes leads to soreness.)

Have you gotten the food and sleep that should accompany an increase in mileage? And how significant a jump in mileage are we talking about here--from 80 to 90, or from 60 to 90?

I hope you get good answers from the professionals. These additional data should help that.
i am smart
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 3:15PM - in reply to lease Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Ever take chemistry? Drink some ammonia. It will cancel out the acid and restore a normal pH level.
noname
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 3:17PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
First you could read a physiology textbook and realize that your achy muscles are not the result of lactic acid.

Lactic acid is a strong acid and when it's produced in the muscle cell it quickly loses a proton and becomes lactate. Lactate is what accumulates in the blood not lactic acid.

Anyway, blood lactate levels return to near resting levels within 30-45 minutes even after a very streuous workout.

High blood lacate levels during or after running will not cause muscle soreness.

The muscle soreness you are experiencing is likely caused by eccentric muscle contractions causing micro-tears in your muscle cells. There is a cascade of events including histamine release, white blood cell activation, etc., that is causing some of the soreness as well.

Take some anti-infammatories or pain killers.
Ouch!
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 3:51PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
If the run was slower than normal you may have been putting a larger eccentric load on the muscles. This would increase muscle micro-trauma considerably.

If your body was low on glycogen/glucose before or during the run you may have been running mostly using your fat stores, and you may have been running at a pace faster than your body could economically provide energy for.

You may have put a harder week in leading up to this run than you think, and maybe your body just wasn't ready and really broke down on this run. This seems the most likely to me. How was your post-run meal? It may not have provided adequate protein/carbs for a full recovery.

I wouldn't take any NSAIDs unless you really need to run today. Your legs are sore because of inflammation, but that inflammation is bringing in nutrients to help "fix" your legs. Your best bet instead would be to go for a 30-45 minute walk, or hop on the stationary bike at 40-50% MHR and pedal for 30 minutes.
turkey leg
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 4:06PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ouchhh wrote:

Did a 22 miler at a slow steady pace which was easy aerobically. However surprisingly my quads still kill the next day. I assume that is lactic acid.


Lactic acid is not produced from aerobic metabolism.
the don
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 4:33PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Soreness isn't from lactic acid, its from muscle damage. It's a myth that lactic acid burns your muscles and causes soreness.

Running for 22 miles beats you up, just rest a bit and eat well.
The Concrete Runner
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 4:37PM - in reply to the don Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Keep it on the crete?
marijuologist
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 4:45PM - in reply to The Concrete Runner Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Actually muscle soreness is an outright myth altogether. Muscles are not equipped with pain fibers and hence cannot detect discomfort. What you are really feeling is inflammation at the interface of the muscle and tendon.
Wha?
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 5:19PM - in reply to marijuologist Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

marijuologist wrote:

Actually muscle soreness is an outright myth altogether. Muscles are not equipped with pain fibers and hence cannot detect discomfort. What you are really feeling is inflammation at the interface of the muscle and tendon.


Where do you find this nonsense? It's buck-naked W-R-O-N-G. But still, I am curious, where did you learn this?

The other day, I heard a fellow runner assert that shin- splints were not a true injury, but merely an aberrant pain response to pounding. I almost got whiplash when I heard this. Your assertion reminded me of this, both in its tone of certitude and wrongness.

Noname is right on the money, BTW. Hydrate, work the muscles gently to clean them out (easy jogging/biking), ice if needed. Good luck!
lose that fat, buddy
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 5:23PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
0/10, no one is stupid enough to think the soreness from a long run is lactic acid.
Rombus
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 5:28PM - in reply to the don Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I flood my system with fluids. More than I think I need. And yes, rest.
2 or 3 days to recover.
pogo
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 5:34PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
HOLY CRAP

1. EVERY ACTIVITY PRODUCES LACTIC ACID.

-Get over it, it does. It's simply fuel, very efficient fuel. Walking around produces lactic acid, running slowly produces lactic acid, running fast produces lactic acid.

These activities all produce different amounts of lactic acid. When the amount produced outpaces the amount that can be used, you're in trouble and will be limited by the substance.

2. Any lactic acid produced is gone within an hour.

-No matter how hard or fast you ran, it's back to normal levels very quickly.

3. Your muscles are suffering from micro-tearing that requires blood to be repaired, hence the swelling and discomfort.

-Ibuprofen (anti-inflamatories), easy running, and ice baths will help, that's it.
ouchhh
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 6:37PM - in reply to i am smart Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks for the replies. I went from 70 to 80 this week for the first time and had a very solid tempo session week. I ran the 22 miler at my usual easy pace.

Ok, I now buy that its not from lactate or lactic acid (or whatever the hell u nerds call it). Perhaps its microtearing and probably related to insufficient hydration.

And yes, it was on the crete!
cah87
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 6:52PM - in reply to Wha? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Actually muscle 'soreness' is a result of inflammation. So you are W-R-O-N-G. I'm not the same poster, obviously, but I heard this from a well respected exercise physiologist. I work in his lab.
cah87
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 6:58PM - in reply to cah87 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

When tissue damage occurs, inflammatory cells called neutrophils infiltrate the muscle and cause inflammation. More inflammatory cells called macrophages move in to clean up and remove the cellular debris. A second wave of macrophages then comes in to assist the repair procedure, along with stress proteins. Inflammation is a necessary process in the healing of tissue. As the inflammatory process runs its course, muscle fibers are repaired and become stronger. As the muscle becomes stronger, this process may even prevent subsequent damage..




Scientists do not know the exact reason for the pain associated with delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), but many hypotheses try to explain the phenomenon. One theory is that inflamed and swollen muscle fibers press on pain receptors and alert the brain to register pain. Another theory suggests that the inflammatory cells (phagocytes) that come to clean up the damaged tissue further damage the tissue, which leads to pain. Still another theory surmises that the free radicals (molecules that are highly reactive and harmful in the body) produced by the inflammatory cells aggravate the already existing damage, causing pain. Most likely a combination of all these factors contributes to the pain of DOMS.



http://www.healthline.com/hlbook/strt-delayed-onset-muscle-soreness
close...
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 8:17PM - in reply to pogo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The breakdown of 1 mole blood glucose or muscle glycogen into usable energy results in the production of 2 mole pyruvate. From here, pryuvate can be converted to Acetyl CoA and used in the Krebs cycle (aerobic), or via the enzyme LDH be converted into lactic acid (anaerobic). LDH activity is correlated directly to the amount of muscular O2. Low O2 = high LA production, high O2 = low-to-none LA production.

So if you are exercising in a complete aerobic state you will produce insignificantly more lactate than if you were at complete rest. Excluding of course, the first 1-3 minutes of exercise.

Now, it is true you have lactate throughout your body at all times (1-2mmol), this is because RBC's don't have mitochondria and can't metabolize the pyruvate they evolve though normal functioning.
Jogger to be
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 8:35PM - in reply to close... Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I am not sure why your legs are hurting. I am a marathoner, not a scientist. After my long runs, I put on a pair of compression socks for the next few hours. And I lay on the couch and watch tv. But I do it with my legs propt up on cushions onto the arm rest. So my legs are much higher than my heart. Legs almost completely straight up in the air. This really seems to help. That and be sure to stretch after the run and a few hours later.
Pacer
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 8:46PM - in reply to ouchhh Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
This is an interesting thread as I was a pacer at a marathon recently....running almost 1 hour slower than my previous race time and my legs hurt very high up in the quad area...was assuming it was from keeping my stride very short...instead of stretching it out to go faster...maybe purposely running slow does do some damage....as you legs are restricting movement? Anyone can weigh in on this?
lease
RE: how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid 10/25/2008 9:03PM - in reply to Pacer Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Pacer wrote:

This is an interesting thread as I was a pacer at a marathon recently....running almost 1 hour slower than my previous race time and my legs hurt very high up in the quad area...was assuming it was from keeping my stride very short...instead of stretching it out to go faster...maybe purposely running slow does do some damage....as you legs are restricting movement? Anyone can weigh in on this?

Same thing, most likely: excessive eccentric contraction, which is a prime cause of muscular soreness.

In restricting your stride and spending hours performing an unfamiliar movement pattern, you were most likely setting one muscle against its antagonist--accentuating the muscle's eccentric contraction.

In addition, if your movement tempo was a a lot slower, you would have been spending much longer than usual in the support phase. Same result.

It's a phenomenon similar to the "learning soreness" (or "coordination soreness") that we see in beginning weight lifters, even if they're using very light weights.

Reminds me of the advice we got back in the '70s: "The most painful marathon you'll ever do is the one that you run with your wife."
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