My goal of sub 4:00 1500-I will not stop until I reach my goal.

boingo, I suggested that just because it may be that your potential for improvement this season is limited by two, maybe three, factors: 1) total mileage (not necessarily a problem if quality is high enough), 2) lack of high quality tempos, 3) lack of VO2 max length intervals (1200m-2k).

I do think that 6-5:40 is a big difference on the tempos. Namely, for what I've run, 6 is a little slower than half marathon pace, whereas 5:40 is about 10k pace; for you, 10k pace would be 5:10-5:20 or better if you turned to the 10k. Try a harder tempo at whatever distance. If 5:40 is tough for 6M (should be manageable with some practice), try something like UNM does--2x3M tempo or what my club does--2M, 1.5M, 1M. You did 5:30-40 for a 5k; try two with 800m rest. On the track, for VO2 Max, try something like 5-8 reps of 1600m. I see Michael Kilburg's workouts--10x1600m--and think doing at least five by mile, and probably more is very good for training the systems intermediate between long speed (1k-400m) and tempo (2M-10M). Obviously, good slow recovery stuff is needed around these workouts, but the experts seem pretty unanimous on the value of a long run, 200m-1k intervals, 1200m-2k intervals, marathon pace runs, and tempo runs. what's tricky is to get enough of those while staying healthy.

I've been thinking of doing the NYC Qualifying Challenge (if that's around april 21st?) or maybe going for the 1/2 marathon in early May and going to LA for some track meet in April--not sure yet. You would destroy me at any distance. In any case, I plan on the NYRR track meets and maybe St.John's in May.

you're absolutely right that I need to work the speed and quality. The plan is to restore the base for a month, then reduce the mileage, and increase the quality significantly. As I get back in shape, I'm hoping the tempos will get back under six soon. I'm working on my speed by doing vertical/horizontal jumps (el g did them, ergo ...), more hill repeats, more hard 200s, more frequent strides, and more reps/more frequently of 1200m-mile intervals. While I ran a 58 in high school to win a bet with my distance coach, and probably was three or four seconds faster than that in college before getting injured, I lost all my speed during my long, long convalescence and have hit 68 at best during this comeback; yet, this seems trainable to a point, as my 200's have improved whenever I've tried running them harder for a few weeks. I'm considering a third speed workout per week (in addition to intervals of 400m-mile and tempo). I'm also considering trying some race pace intervals with full rest, of the type that you and eddy have done. When I'm back in NYC in six weeks, I should be able to get higher quality speed workouts and some pr's. If not, I'll be asking for some critiques of my plan.

right, and when you say, "Are you going to start moving into some harder workouts now? It seems like you've been doing a lot of mileage (which is A+) but it does seem like you're going to need a bit more speed/speed-endurance to get the job done," do you have any specific workouts/targets in mind?

I just looked up the qualifying challenge and see that's May 10th. That's a great meet and I would really like to do it again, but it's just before I drive back, so I probably can't. I was thinking of the Mayor's Cup, which is in April.

I was reading this and came to the stuff on tempos. Our team did and interesting tempo workout to try and drop our tempo paces a little, and work on that threshold pace. We ran quarters in lane 8, and the rest was the stagger (20m maybe?)

It's a cool workout, because I could hit a flow, and my lap time slowly dropped from 90's to start to 83-82 consistently by the end. We did 4 miles, but it could easily be done for a longer distance with the same benefit. The next week when we did a regular 4 mile tempo, I managed a little under 5:45's comfortable, where I had previously been running 5:50 pace or slower for 4 miles. Just a thought.

Alright. We'll see if I can't drop my tempo work down to a more proper pace in the future. Since I am running for college, I don't have a WHOLE lot of sway in the workouts I run, but my coach is occasionally open to me doing longer reps if I feel like I need the work.

I've always thought of mile reps as more of a 10k kind of workout. (Indeed, usually our coach has 5k-10k people doing mile reps while more mid-distance people do 1k reps) At what length (or duration) of repeat do you start developing v02? (I know the pace should be around 3k-5k to get the most out of it).

If I were to absolutely structure my season, I would prolong the period of harder longer intervals after cross country (which I regard as basically what you're doing now - high mileage, 800-1000-mile reps of at least race distance, tempo, and occasionally high volume 400's for maintenance). I'd work my way down from mile to 1200 and 1000 - moving from 8 reps to 5-6, reduce the rest, and hammer them. 8x800, 6x600, 20x400, all at faster pace. So my ideal two week cycle (when not racing) would look something like these, post cross country base:

Sunday: 2 hr long

Monday: Tempo - vary between 5k @ 10 pace, 10k @ half pace, or 8 at whatever I can bang out. On hilly terrain if possible.

Tuesday: 70-90 mins rec

Wednesday: V02 max-style track workout. 8-10x8 at 3k, between 1-2 mins rest / 5-6 x 1k at 5k or sub 5k pace, 2 mins rest / 600's at faster than 3k with 1:30 rest.

Thursday: 70-90 rec

Friday: Speed endurance or speed development. 12x400 at mile pace 60 rest (take 2 mins after 6 if you're falling off) / 30x200 on 60 seconds @ mile pace, 6x600 at mile pace with 2-3 mins rest, 12x300 @ 800 pace with 2 mins rest. Those are all speed endurance - usually the 12x3 is prefaced with a 1k at mile pace, followed by about 10-15 rest.

Speed devel: 6-4-3-2-1, 3 sets, jog upcoming interval, cutdown pace. (Last time I did it it was something like 1:39 / 63 / 44 / 28). Split 1500's - 400, 30 seconds, 800 with 60 rest, 300 x2 sets. all at mile pace. Split 800's - 600, 30 rest, 200 x 4-5 - at 800 pace. Also, to really work on your top end speed, there's this gem: 350 / 300 / 250 / 200 / 150. 7 minutes rest between. Just bust them all out - if you're doing it right, you should be ready to quit by the 250. I've never finished it without the overwhelming urge to vomit my brains out.

I would alternate between the two of these types of workout, making sure I'm not losing the ability to run hard or fast at any point. I am pretty good at tolerating fast paces for 400-800 reps off short rest, but my actual top-end speed will deteriorate pretty quickly if I don't use it. Similarly I'm decent at longer reps with ample rest, but I definitely do need to work on aerobic strength.

Saturday: Another 70-90 minutes.

As I approached a race, I would drop one or two of the reps from the Wednesday workout and complete them at a much faster pace - probably add or keep the rest the same as feel dictates. I don't worry too much about the rest I take between intervals..I know being able to take short rest is an indicator of fitness, but I don't necessarily believe it is a builder of one (at least in the cases of distance reps, where the goal is not necessarily to build up lactic acid).

I would probably also do 1k or 1200 on Friday at race pace for probably the prior two weeks to the race.

When you can go through that 1k-1200 at your target goal pace and feel pretty okay (for running 2:39 - 3:12) and hit that 6x600 at mile pace, in addition to getting those 1ks on Weds close to 3:00 average - while maintaining mileage at 70-80...I would say you're ready for sub 4:00. Because you have a great deal of endurance, being able to hit about where I did for those workouts or a little faster will probably get you there. The limiting factor for you will be the speed endurance stuff.

Definitely in this stage you'd also want to be doing accels as a part of your warmup - right before you head into the workout do at least an 800 of jogging the bend and accelerating up to 95% on the straight, maintaining, and easing off as you approach the line. Not only do those help me feel better coming into fast workouts (sometimes I'll do up to 10) I think they've helped my top-end speed too. You have to make sure you're not straining when doing those, though.

Whew. Much longer than I intended this to be. But to address one of your main points, speed is most definitely trainable. The strides will help a ton.

Today our workout was 20x200 with 60-75 rest. It was a pretty poor day with wind, yet again..it was supposed to be about a second faster, but I averaged 30 high.

boingo, thanks a lot. that is extremely helpful. all of that sounds awfully tough for me, but then that is the problem: I haven't done much at all at mile pace or below, certainly nothing above 400s. I will start doing some of that this week.

I ended up doing 13.5 tuesday (8x800+1x200, then 6 slow in the afternoon, with 2M at 7 pace)

wednesday: 14.5. 4 w/baby stroller, 9/7:48/8:05 staying slow with the mini-train/6:15!!; evening 10.5 w/10.2 @6:37 pace. 6:55 pace out and 6:22 back, closing in 5:45. was fighting wind for the first couple miles back. Wasn't kicking it in and felt progressively better, so I think that I am again in pr shape, at least for everything over 5k, maybe close for 5k, probably close or 3k. This would be the third time in ABQ that I've been in this shape--I hope that I can get a sea level race in before the next injury.

2x3x300m today to sharpen up for my 800m saturday. 50 seconds to jog 100m between intervals, 3 min between sets.

44, 47, 45

44, 47, 44

also, i agree with a lot of the stuff boingo posted. good info.

jonesy, if you are anything like me, you will roll once you get down to sea level. i suck at running at altitude though; i've had chronic altitude sickness since skiing trips as a kid.

If I could offer a little advice on your ideal week, I'd keep at least one day a week where rather than run 70-90 easy I'd run a 45-45 double, or something similar. As a guy who runs up to 120mpw, I'm not lacking in strength, but I think one of my mistakes in the past has been plodding through daily 70+min runs for weeks on end, and I don't think I quite get the best out of myself doing that.

I'd even say 2 days a week like that getting close to track season. A day or 2 a week where no single run is over 50 minutes seems to really make a difference. If you look at the logs of the greats, it seems to be how it's normally done.

Also, just as a general point, if you can get them in, doubles doubles doubles! Cannot stress enough!

splitting up the runs so as to get at least one of the shorter runs significantly faster, I take it? teg does something like that--35(25?) minute and 50 minute runs each day, six or better pace for the second, I think?

sounds like a good idea. w/one long run, progression may be the answer to the plodding issue.

solojoe, looks like you're going to be close to 2:00 in your race. hope you break it. and thanks, i hope that going to sea level brings a good drop, if I am healthy before going, unlike last time.

I don't think it's necessary to aim to do them faster, but I find my second runs on days like that tend to be a good bit snappier more my accident than intent.

It's just my belief that when you start getting into a heavier workload it's important to take pains to keep the legs feeling fresh, rather than to always be running workouts semi-tired and with poor form. For the same reason I reckon strides, hill sprints and some light plyos are a good complement to high mileage.

That's one of the nice things about doubles - you can have one run be about just getting some miles in, and the second about getting to a nice grassy hill and doing some sprints and plyos - I find if I do these exercises with running in between I get both a good aerobic session (heart rate stays up) and a muscular one. Time management is important to me!

Other than the real mileage hogs (jenkins, sell etc) most elite logs, from Steve Scott to Ritzenhein, seem to use these 2xshort recovery run days a lot. I think we can get too trapped in the mentality that "a 12 mile run is ALWAYS better than two 6 mile runs". It's about the big picture - the training week's workload.

Event 19 Men 5000 Meter Run

===============================================================================

Saturday 4/5/2008 - 4:40 PM

StrehleTrack: 14:04.58 4/14/2006 Diego Borrego, Mexico

PP Inv Meet: 14:04.58 4/14/2006 Diego Borrego, Mexico

Name Year School Seed

===============================================================================

1 Jesse Armijo adidas/movin sho 14:35.92

2 Kevin Chaves Occidental 14:37.00

3 Marco Venancio PUROPRO 14:38.00

4 Brian Sullivan Running Center/C 14:44.23

5 Alex Ramon Occidental 14:45.00

6 Luis Ibarra Nike Team Run LA 15:00.00

7 Jason Valenzuela Vanguard 15:03.00

8 Danny Martinez Run With Us 15:04.00

9 Chris Smith Redlands 15:08.06

10 Tony Pulido Concordia (Cal.) 15:10.12

11 Evan Watchempino Unattached 15:12.22

12 Guillermo Cazares Concordia (Cal.) 15:15.27

13 Christian De Glymes Vanguard 15:15.68

14 Benny Madrigal Fresno Pacific 15:18.00

15 Robert Hernandez Fresno Pacific 15:18.00

16 Mark Eichenlaub South Field Trac 15:28.00

17 Conrad Wozniak Pepperdine 15:29.42

18 Michael Najera Cal Poly Pomona 15:30.03

19 Victor Cuccia Cal Poly Pomona 15:30.45

20 Jeremy Kalmus Redlands 15:36.50

21 Eloy Quintana Fresno Pacific 15:39.00

22 Brian Gillis Pomona-Pitzer 15:40.00

23 Torrey Olson Pomona-Pitzer 15:41.00

24 Juan Ramirez Cal Coast 15:42.68

25 Isaiah White Pepperdine 15:45.00

26 Kirby Ifland Westmont 15:46.22

27 Ryan Lucker Unattached 15:50.00

28 Alex Wood Cal Poly Pomona 15:53.94

29 Jeff Gehringer Cal St. Hayward 16:10.00

30 Thomas Martinez Whittier 16:12.00

31 Edward Lee Cal St. Bakersfi 16:12.32

32 Alec Fillmore Redlands 16:17.09

33 Charlie Enscoe Pomona-Pitzer 16:18.80

34 Marcos Gomez Cal St. Hayward 16:20.70

35 Robby Nelson Occidental 16:30.21

36 Andrew Welch Cal St. Hayward 16:47.00

37 Elliott Nicholson Cal St. Hayward 16:48.00

38 Mike Morin Biola 16:48.75

39 John Erlandson Cal St. Hayward 16:51.70

40 Jeff West Redlands 16:54.50

41 Samuel Goldenberg USC 16:55.09

42 James Woolley Trinity (Tex.) 16:58.00

43 Sachith Dunatunga Caltech 17:09.51

44 Brett Shea Pomona-Pitzer 17:30.00

45 Keenan Ferar Pomona-Pitzer 17:35.46

46 Ross Brennan Pomona-Pitzer 17:46.26

47 Blake Adams USC NT

48 John Peate USC NT

First time running the 5k on a track. Any advice for such a large field? Thank you.

ill throw my hat in for sub 4...10x200m/200m jog ave 28.5 felt easy

aged 17 do 30 miles a week pbs 51 1.55 and 4.03

my suggestion to you eddy would be not to get in over your head the first mile. you've been racing a lot of shorter stuff and doing a lot of intervals so you don't want to go into the red too early. just try and settle into a group that is running about the splits you want to, and after a mile or two start competing with those around you.

Week so far:

Monday: 4x1200+3min rest on dirt trail

Tuesday: 2x1200 w/ full recovey: 320,??(run by feel). He wanted the first one to be close to race pace, and the second one he wanted to focus on the first 600(1:38).3:20 1200 is the fastest I've ran in practice ever.

Wed: easy 6.5

Th: 1x800

2x400

5min rest after the 800 and 2min rest after the 400.

Times: 2:05,59,64

This may have been my best practice in my life.

Friday: I'll most likely do an easy 5.

Sat: race 5k on track

I do not know if I am ready for the 5k, but I do think I am ready for a pr in the 1500.

very nice work eddy. don't be disappointed if you're a little flat at the race because of the strong workouts this week. as for advice, I'd say that in a big field you're going to have guys holding you up, so pass quickly coming off the turn at the beginning of the straightaways. save ground on the turns. choose a good group to go with and draft off them. if their splits start to slow, go past and find another group. although most of the seed times are fast for your race, no doubt there will be enough going slower. they might do two heats, however.

thursday: 15.5-2:07. much of it slow, except 2 miles at 14:13, 3xhills hard at about mile 11, and at the beginning track work.

after 1.5M w/u, I did solo track work: boingo's 800m of hard straightaways, jogging the turns. Then 12x800 with 110 jog and rest to 1 minute total, avg.34 (5@34,3@35,1@36, last three at 33). It was windy on the backstretch. Then I did the remaining 11 miles.

I didn't want to get injured, so I stopped at 12 (actually two more than intended at first) 200s. I seem to be healthy, so maybe I'll go to 24 next time.

12x200 that should say!

In my opinion, you are being too aggresive with your training. I have been consistently doing 45-50 miles per week since August, with no Summer base. XC I ran 27:30 8k, 34:17 10k, and did a 16:07 5K over Xmas break. Febuary, I ran a 9:05 3k time trial bymyself. Ran a 15:44 5k (23 second PR) my first track meet, then two weeks later, ran 3:53 (my previous 1500 PR was 4:03). All of my mileage is between 7 and 8 minutes per mile. Besides T and I pace (Daniels) the only R pace workouts I did were 4x200, 1x400 with full rest in between (3 minutes). It is too late to make any drastic changes to your training, but I have noticed the most improvements by actually being conservative.

obviously you have some talent. T pace is 10M pace roughly? I is interval pace? what is that for you?

Friday 14.3 (albuquerque) ran very slow 3 miler on grass in the morning and then did 11.3 in the afternoon with a 6M tempo at 6:03/M. 5:44,6:03,6:11,6:22,6:11,5:46).

again, hope of a big drop based on whom I ran with. I had done a couple 7M tempos at 6:17-19 in the past month, so this was an improvement. prior to injury, for tempos I ran 5:49 pace for 4.1M and 5:45 and 5:55 pace for 2x3M.