LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

ahhh the man is back, how I've missed his ego filled posts. :') Always thinking his right and not listening until being injured and reflecting, or giving tons of excuses, hindsight 20/20 reasons. Welcome back!

I looked at this guy's Strava. There is no way he his going to run a 15:30 5k. His training is too inconsistent and haphazard.

Han Solo wrote:

Phil, I feel for you. Having a chronic injury that never really goes away and is only manageable is not a fun way to live.

We give you crap, but if you want help, we have resources and knowledgable people here who can help you.

Don't accept that your shin splints will never go away! You most likely have some functional weakness somewhere down the chain that is causing them. People more knowledgable than me can help pinpoint what may be causing this, but my first inclination would be to do a self-check on your overall mobility and flexibility in terms of quads, hips, hamstrings, etc. If you lack hip mobility/strength, that's going to have a trickle down effect through your lower body.

It was chronic from 2010-2016. I probably ran only 500 miles in total in these 6 years. Now it's more like a limiter if I do too much/train too hard. I was just a big noob when I started running,

My body is easy to explain - muscular imbalances, strong overpronation, very strong quads, weak glutes/hips (even in cycling, I wasn't able to use them properly). Very limited flexibility in legs (but very good one in shoulders/arms), extremely shortened muscles in legs. Can do good squats with great form, but struggle with deadlifts (improper form, mostly using my lower back).

I doubt it affects my running much, and especially not my shin splints or stress fractures in my feet. I don't consider my speed to be a limiting factor right now, since I'm very strong on short reps and hill sprints. Still, I will add some body weight exercises and maybe even sign up for a gym since I like lifting.

Also I updated the Excel training plan (first post). I'm essentially using the last weeks of the plan I bought from Tinman on Finalsurge. Mostly lower mileage & easier workouts. I plan to double every day, but with swimming/cycling. Will see how it goes!

"Will see how it goes" , lol . You don't understand training . I stop there, nothing more to say about it.You are constantly looking for your total degradation.

You say its nothing, but it was "so painful i had to take 5 days off running".

You don't want and won't take any advice from people trying to help you, so I'm not sure why anyone would even try.

For the record, I dealt with chronic issues that totally derailed me for many years. I took every piece of advice I got and explored them and tried to see if it would help me. I had an open mind to try anything to get back to running free and easy. If you can't say the same, then you're a lost cause.

Phil, I will try to keep this as short as I can so you respond directly to my questions - the posts you have written in the last day total over 1800 words. If you did not on some level believe you were injured, I do not think it would require so many words to explain. Here's what I mean - I am still not sure what your strategy will be to recover from your shin splints.

From your writing, here's what I can boil down:

-You said you know you are not injured by comparing your shin splints to a sacral stress fracture. Without into getting into what an injury is, how does your sacral stress fracture give you any indication that your shin splints are not requiring more attention?

-You have been struggling with shin splints since starting running in 2010, and your training history is peppered with issues dealing with them. Over the years, I am certain you have run through a lot of pain. I am worried you simply have learned to ignore your check engine light.

-You wrote a few times about gaining weight during your break, wanting to stay trim, and about not wanting to take a break because you would become heavier. I will come out and say it, I think you are too focused on your weight, and it is getting in the way of thoughtful training.

-In one post you wrote that you have always had good form, and in another post you acknowledged a laundry list of muscular imbalances and weaknesses. These two facts are not likely consistent, and at the very least, muscular imbalances alone can lead to injury.

-You seem to propose that your shin splints are a result of too much too soon, and muscular imbalances. Your proposed solution is to add another large, quality block of training, starting now.

Is there anything you want to correct in my understanding? These questions are all general in nature, so pacing and coaching does not need to come into the equation. Tell me if I understand what you're saying.

Phil, when you have a moment, please listen to this podcast. I think you will find it extremely useful and it will help you inform your decision making with your training.

high low emptu wrote:

Phil, when you have a moment, please listen to this podcast. I think you will find it extremely useful and it will help you inform your decision making with your training.

Good podcast, I'm definitely eating too much and primarily carbs and that might have shifted my metabolism more to anaerobic. Also in training, my strides, hill sprints and 200s were just too fast for my level so I produced a lot of lactate. Also doing "CV intervals" way too hard for 2 years week after week did not help. Who knows where I would already be had I trained the right way. But it's not too late to change! We just gotta continuously learn more about running and training and do it better in the future.

I would suggest not worry about eating too much (only too little). For me, the key takeaway from the pod, was that as more FT type person I should try to do my workouts easier than an ST since I need to work on improving type IIa fibres aerobic properties.

Also, things of short duration, propbably up to 20secs if with proper recovery should not in any way interfere with aerobic improvements. That should not be an issue. Few 200s here and there should not either. Its the longer intervals that might prevent desirable adaptations.

Maybe doing medium/longer intervals slower than fitness would indicate and doing short intervals faster (which will be only natural) is the way to go.

I think if you have a moment, definitely do a 200 or 400 all out to see where you are.

Answers in bold.

high low emptu wrote:

I would suggest not worry about eating too much (only too little). For me, the key takeaway from the pod, was that as more FT type person I should try to do my workouts easier than an ST since I need to work on improving type IIa fibres aerobic properties.

Tinman recommends FT runners to do fewer reps in workouts.

Magness recommends to control pace, because it's easy to go out too quickly and end up producing WAY too much lactate and totally missing the stimulus. Same in tempo runs. I tend to agree with these observations.

Also easy days need to be very easy and long runs.

To your second post, yes I've done the 1k reps too fast in the past (around 5k pace). I trained myself to run at high lactate levels and tolerate them, was able to somehow get a decent 5k time due to a massive kick but anything longer and I fell off massively. Look at how the Tinman Elite, or "Workout Wednesday" guys are doing their workouts - that's way more controlled, no struggling/fighting through reps and no crazy breathing/hyperventilating that I frequently did. I just overestimated my fitness level, pushed through everything and paid the price for it with stagnation and multiple injuries.

Phil, I think I know what your problem is. Gaming!

As a gamer you were used, more than used, you were "formatted" over the years, to get quick rewards.

I have played enough video/computer games to know that even when you lose time and again, the game will still give you some encouragement, to keep you happy enough, motivated enough to keep trying and not quit playing.

And you said you were a professional, so you were good enough so that you got those quick rewards all the time.

It's the same with addictions, and I know this only too well as a recovering alcoholic.

You want quick rewards from running. They happen up to a point, when you begin training, but then rewards take more time to happen.

If you don't change this "formatting", it will be very difficult for you to escape this cycle of injuries.

Phil, can you point to one time you took someone's advice on the boards? As in, someone said something, and you took their advice to heart, and you altered a single run based on the advice? You seem to have an answer for everything, even if it might not be true. Your output channels seem to be fully functional, but there is no way to receive input. I was confused why so few engaged with you on the boards, and unfortunately now I know why - it's a one-way street, with all the tinman info drowning out anything else people might be trying to tell you. Your shin splints can lead to stress fractures in your shin. I'll leave it at that.

He listened well to Tinmans advice and posts here I'll tell you that for sure

Hi wrote:

Phil, can you point to one time you took someone's advice on the boards? As in, someone said something, and you took their advice to heart, and you altered a single run based on the advice? You seem to have an answer for everything, even if it might not be true. Your output channels seem to be fully functional, but there is no way to receive input. I was confused why so few engaged with you on the boards, and unfortunately now I know why - it's a one-way street, with all the tinman info drowning out anything else people might be trying to tell you. Your shin splints can lead to stress fractures in your shin. I'll leave it at that.

Seriously - this. At the end of day we want to help you. If you want to not listen to anyone, why are you here?

Phil. If, as you say, you eat 5000 calories a day (regardless whether or not you are training/hungrier), that hints at the root of your issues with too much - too soon.

It starts off a chain of events:

- "I must eat 5000 calories a day because that is my plan. I will not deviate, even though I am less hungry after a few days off. My body's feedback is secondary to my meticulous plan. If someone questions me on why I am doing this, I will barf up information about my meticulous plan until they go away."

- "I need to keep running or I will gain weight and then it will exacerbate my existing injury. I mean, it's not an injury."

- "The solution to my injury is to keep running."

- At this point, you've used your injury to justify plowing ahead with your training largely unadjusted. Now that is either convenient, or it's a clever deflection from the heart of the matter.

In this way, we arrive at the guy in this thread. Doesn't modulate food intake or training intensity based on real feedback from the body, just plows ahead with the plan. That's compulsion, man, pure and simple. When you start to connect to how your body feels, that's transcendent. It goes beyond running at that point, but your running will become a joy. Trust me.

I first thought Phil might post here just to get the attention, but I don't think that is the case. I think Phil genuinely needs help. We are not professionals but all we can do is be infinitely patient with him.