LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

the all time annoying exacta rolls in wrote:

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

It's not okey nonsense that you raise out of you! I proposed LRP an offer to test my method and LRP declined. So what?

So what? I'll tell you.... he likely saved himself the ignominy that Below Average suffered at your coaching.

You are fraud!!!!!

Bet LRP as you call him, is no peach either, so he may well have done you a favor as well.

You ever hear expression, don't look a gift horse in the mouth? Maybe you shouldn't.

So,.......you mean it was an ignominy that Below Average with my coaching ran a new personal best at 10 miles after 10 years!?? You seem to have had a miserable life and now you just spit out your dung in frustration. Have a nice day! ))

Week 1 (8h45min):

5/3 - 95 min in 7:40/mi on hilly trails (no power in legs, painful blisters left foot)

5/4 - 60 min 7:20/mi & 6x20s ST

5/5 - 70 min incl. 6 mile Tinman Tempo in 5:50/mi (with supportive wind). Blisters came back (shoes), bad form, easy aerobically

5/6 - 30 min 8:00/mi AM + 60 min 7:35/mi PM

5/7 - 60 min 7:50/mi & 10x20s ST

5/8 - 70 min CV workout on track 6x1k in 3:30/k + 4x200 in 34-33-32-30. Warm, hydration break after 3 reps. CV okay, not fast, not easy, just moderately hard. 200s always fun. Barefoot CD fun.

5/9 - 30 min 8:00/mi AM + 50 min 7:40/mi PM. Felt bad on morning run, better on evening. Legs fresher than usual after a "CV" workout.

Solid first week. In retrospect, my CV workouts were on average 10s/k too fast. Usually right on the pace I could hold for ~15 min (~5k pace). This week was more like 8-10k pace, it feels slow but that was expected. I'm not adjusted to run anything else than very hard and easy. 3:30/k doesn't feel easier than 3:20/k, but it's a different kind of "pain". I'm running with less lactate/power, but this is what will make me stronger, giving my body a chance to learn how to clear lactate and use it. I'm not just using lots of anaerobic energy and then super slow shuffles to get through the workout. Will be interesting to see the development in the next weeks/months.

This week has a short TT/speed on Wednesday (4xMile@T and either an 800 with first lap at Mile effort, or 3x400 prog) and then a 10k TT on Saturday, aiming to start at 3:30/k and then drop it down to 3:25/k (which should be CV pace under ideal conditions) in the middle and finish even stronger. My last TT a month ago was in 3:38/k on the roads, so it will be interesting.

the all time annoying exacta rolls in wrote:

This thread keeps on giving.

Phil giving a WAY TOO LONG self aggrandizing diatribe because he didn't push to hard, and

JS begging, fucking begging for this ego-maniac to allow him to be coached by the great JS.

Hey JS, you've met your match, he has a bigger ego than you do. Either that or he knows you are full of poop.

i love this post

Nice week Phil. What pace will the mile repeats be? My guess would be 3:35 if your CV 1000s were 3:30.

Give it a month and you’ll find yourself much stronger aerobically and this effort will be much less painful. Indeed, it will always feel easier during the workout though to push through your threshold and run with higher lactate. But you’ll feel the hurt more afterwards.

It’s still early so doing a fast 800 or 400s seems very hasty. Why not do 150s or more 200s? 400s at 3k-5k pace are also fine but no faster.

the lactate man wrote:

Nice week Phil. What pace will the mile repeats be? My guess would be 3:35 if your CV 1000s were 3:30.

Give it a month and you’ll find yourself much stronger aerobically and this effort will be much less painful. Indeed, it will always feel easier during the workout though to push through your threshold and run with higher lactate. But you’ll feel the hurt more afterwards.

It’s still early so doing a fast 800 or 400s seems very hasty. Why not do 150s or more 200s? 400s at 3k-5k pace are also fine but no faster.

Mile reps at 3:30/k. It was hot, 78F and sunny during the CV reps, so they were essentially at 3:25/k pace. Heat matters a lot for me, I think. That's a bit faster than 1 hour pace, but I'll take a full 400m jog recovery so it should be comfortable.

I don't think that faster paces feel easier for most runners. I know a lot of people who can run very long at 3:30/k or 3:35/k but can't run 3:20/k well. And the faster, the more they struggle. Maybe their VO2MAX is lower than mine, but their threshold and economy well developed.

The TT wasn't planned all-out, but something like 68-62. I wanted to test my new shoes. But you are right, I haven't done much speed outside of hills and I felt my back (which had a recent stress fracture) during the 30.0 200m rep at the end of last workout. My legs are very strong, but upper body isn't ready for fast paces atm. I lost my core strength since swimming pool and gym are closed and I just run whenever I want to do something. Also feels like I don't have the coordination right now to run fast on the flat, since I've done mostly aerobic training.

But as I said, I want to test my shoes and do something faster to sharpen for the real TT on Saturday. Maybe I'll do 3x400 instead, in like 72-68-64 or something. That probably allows me to focus more on form and run with skill than in an 800, which is the point of it.

As for faster reps feeling easier ... I’m probably the same sort of athlete as you. I run 1500-10k but until a few years ago I ran only the 1500 and was much weaker over longer distances. Now the 5k and 10k are my best events and better than my old 1500 ( I had 3:45).

This past week I had a workout; 4.7k (just Two laps of a forest loop) at threshold. The first lap I started a bit fast and my heart rate was a bit high — 161 when that’s the peak for my threshold — and so the the second I slowed down about 3 sec/km. My legs kept getting heavier though and I started feeling pretty negative and just wanted to speed up. Still, I held myself back. When I finished though I had a lactate of just 3.7mmol. And after a few minutes rest I felt fantastic and did 10x1’ with 1’ rest at a really good pace. And the next day I felt almost fully fit.

Meanwhile, the workouts I have the most fun on are 8-10x1km with 1 minute rest. A few weeks ago I finished the last rep on a measured forest path in 2:48 and felt great. But the rest of the week I was pretty sore and tired and on my ‘Tinman tempo’ workout — 2 mmol training — I ran about 5-8 sec slower / km than I normally do.

Point is, everything I’m saying comes from my own experience. When I was giving you grief for the ‘FT’ stuff it was because there’s a whole level of nuance I felt like you were missing. An athlete like myself — and you, I think — is plenty speedy. But we’re not 800m runners, and we’re not marathon runners. Still, we can easily run at 6-8 mmol without much discomfort. But that doesn’t mean we should be doing that every week.

Finally, If you felt your back recently then definitely be careful about the intensity. One fast 400 at 64 probably won’t hurt ! Just make sure the ones before that aren’t intense, whatever page they are.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

the all time annoying exacta rolls in wrote:

So what? I'll tell you.... he likely saved himself the ignominy that Below Average suffered at your coaching.

You are fraud!!!!!

Bet LRP as you call him, is no peach either, so he may well have done you a favor as well.

You ever hear expression, don't look a gift horse in the mouth? Maybe you shouldn't.

So,.......you mean it was an ignominy that Below Average with my coaching ran a new personal best at 10 miles after 10 years!?? You seem to have had a miserable life and now you just spit out your dung in frustration. Have a nice day! ))

Jan, you always bring up Phil's 10 mile time as a reason to show that your training was successful. However the entire goal and mission was the marathon. The 10 mile was a pit stop on his way to his final destination. He had a great pit stop but sadly, he ran out of gas way before he got to where he wanted to be. But no one ever really debates his 10 mile time, but lets look at the facts.

Phil mentioned that 10 years ago, he mostly stepped away from running due to having a very busy work and home life. He even stopped running completely four four years! He started light jogging two years before becoming more serious and even lost 30 pounds.

If Phil were training during those ten years and set a PR, that would be one thing. But he was mostly in vacation mode. Phil's 14:30 5k and 2:22 marathon were a TON FASTER than his 5ks and marathon with you. It's the difference between a lion and a house cat. So please stop skewing the facts in order to fit your narrative.

My neighbor across the street is in his 80s and ran track in high school. I'm going to train him for a month and have him do a mile time trial. After that, I will be like you and say, 'with my training, Bill has run his fastest mile in over 65 years! My training really is magic! Look at me, I'm the greatest!".

Don't worry about your easy day paces. Don't even report them.

Worrying about easy day pace and not going what is comfortable for you on that day is gonna overcook you way quicker than a few seconds or a few reps on workouts will.

shootpost wrote:

Don't worry about your easy day paces. Don't even report them.

Worrying about easy day pace and not going what is comfortable for you on that day is gonna overcook you way quicker than a few seconds or a few reps on workouts will.

Good point, I don't worry about them and just run depending on feel. With some fatigue, like after a workout, it's often at 7:40-8:00/mi, one time on a double I got rolling and averaged 6:20/mi but I felt it compromised my next days. Sometimes I get rolling during an easy run, finishing around 6:30/mi, often that's after strides when I loosen up.

Reporting easy pace is probably waste of time, unless there is a big outlier (too fast or too slow). Also I often run on very hilly courses, especially during long runs, so the true pace is faster than what I'm reporting. 7:20/mi or so should be the absolute maximum at my level, until I get to low/mid 15 5k comfortably on an easy day and long run day. Even with the "rolling" I need to be careful, Tinman always advices against progressing on easy runs (unless it's from very easy to easy, like from 8:20/mi to 7:40/mi at my level) and especially on long runs.

Phil, to be honest, it kinda seems like you're doing it again. By talking about the heat and now increasing your pace (however legit the argument is) wreaks of the old Phil made excuses for why his true pace was much faster. Without any races around the corner, just let it be what it is. A few days ago you didn't blame the heat and just ran it and seemed happy with your discipline, so I really think this is part of the slippery slope you often fall into where you run yourself into the ground by slowing finding reasons you need to run workouts harder.

siehst wrote:

Phil, to be honest, it kinda seems like you're doing it again. By talking about the heat and now increasing your pace (however legit the argument is) wreaks of the old Phil made excuses for why his true pace was much faster. Without any races around the corner, just let it be what it is. A few days ago you didn't blame the heat and just ran it and seemed happy with your discipline, so I really think this is part of the slippery slope you often fall into where you run yourself into the ground by slowing finding reasons you need to run workouts harder.

What are you referring to, my workout today that I haven't even posted about yet?

Nah, everything is going well. Warm temperatures, and especially sun out or not affects me a lot. I've always been a rain/cold-weather runner. Therefore, last week I ran 3:30/k instead of 3:25/k, because it was warm and sunny.

Today goal was 4x1600 at threshold, and to test my new shoes. I planned 3:30/k, but I was faster at no effort, despite warm temps 64-66F and some wind (~8 mph). They all ended up around 3:27/k, and I did an extra rep because I was cruising. I felt strong and powerful, probably a combination of the new shoes with their bounce and the easier workout from last week.

The 200s were faster than necessary, but again there was no effort. Even the 28.1 was well under control, cadence only ~200 (when I sprint it gets above 220). That was the fastest 200 I ever ran (only ran them Tinman-style after workouts), and I did absolutely no speed training. The new shoes work extremely well for me and my weight (160 lbs) and running style, maybe part of it is mental and they make me feel so good that I just relax and run with great form, but even my legs were beat up way less than usual.

You have no idea how hard I was running my "CV workouts", which were VO2MAX workouts with low rest in practice, week after week. The breathing today had nothing to do with the gasping for air and anaerobic breathing I always did. Even my 400m jog recoveries were at faster than 8 min/mi, and not 12 min/mi like when doing 1000s at 5k/VO2MAX.

Saturday 10k TT on the track will be the moment of truth, I already changed my goal from 3:30/k to 3:24/k.

Yeah, the mile repeats. You found your CV pace to be 3:30 last week when doing 1k reps and said you finally felt you were doing it at the right pace, and now you run your mile repeats (presumably a threshold workout?) even faster at 3:27, and then ADDED an extra rep. Crazy. I'm glad you felt OK afterward, but this is exactly the stuff you'd do before, where you'd find a way to break free of any parameters you set for yourself and go faster and longer. And then you ran the 200s faster than you've ever done.

I should also add that in your last training thread you said the same thing: that the CV pace was easy and your rapid improvement was the reason you kept upping the pace.

But hey, I really hope you do well this weekend. Let's see what happens. But if the TT is slower than you thought, my clearest advice is that's your pace, regardless of the temp or wind or whatever. Hope you crush it and looking forward to your report.

Yeah, on paper it sounds like I was running very hard today, but it really was easy. We can't just look at the pace, since it changes depending on conditions. Shoes also had an impact. You can't compare the NB Zante Pursuit to the Next% on a heavy forefoot runner who is getting massive energy return.

Last year was my 2nd year of running. I didn't know how CV was like to feel, and came up with excuses why I'm using a faster pace than my race times would indicate. But now I know how 5k-paced intervals feel, and therefore also know how slower paces feel.

The 200s were definitely too fast, they should be done at mile pace. Maybe the first one was good, I just tend to naturally speed up and try to run faster and faster and then end at a pace that's way too fast and unnecessary. Hard to get rid of that habit when you've done that for 100+ workouts that way.

Just hypothetically, I`m just curious, What will you do if this schedule one more time will end in

disappointment?Have you thought about a plan B to do if everything mess up , or you just leave that until it happens (or not)?

There definitely is a huge difference between Zantes and vaporflys. Good that the workout felt good. A fast recovery jog is a good sign that you’re feeling good. How did the time trial go?

Will you keep using the vaporfly for workouts ? Just set your sights lower when working out in the zante If you switch back to them. Sounds like 5 sec/km difference.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Yeah, on paper it sounds like I was running very hard today, but it really was easy.

I think the biggest mistake you make is thinking that if it feels easy, it can never be too fast. It isn't good to run faster than the prescribed pace for a workout, even if it feels easy. You have gotten accustomed to running Vo2Max pace with short rest and having it feel relatively easy, but it's still a mistake to run that pace during a CV workout. It's also a mistake to run your easy runs routinely at moderate pace, which "feels easy" for most good runners. And it's a mistake to run your long tempos at short tempo pace and your threshold runs at CV pace.

If I were you, I would do the exact opposite of what shootpost suggested and you agreed with: I would never run by feel. Running by feel is for people who have a good feel for the proper pace, not for people who feel comfortable running significantly too fast every day.

What's surprising to me is that you obviously admire Tom Schwartz, but so much of the Tinman gospel is about holding yourself back and training faster only AFTER you have raced faster. How did you miss that crucial piece of his coaching?

the lactate man wrote:

There definitely is a huge difference between Zantes and vaporflys. Good that the workout felt good. A fast recovery jog is a good sign that you’re feeling good. How did the time trial go?

Will you keep using the vaporfly for workouts ? Just set your sights lower when working out in the zante If you switch back to them. Sounds like 5 sec/km difference.

TT went very well. 34:09 solo TT on the track with some wind, which is 3:25/k and a 10k PR (my last TT was 3:38/k).

Splits: 3:26-3:27-3:28-3:27-3:26-3:27-3:27-3:26-3:25-3:10

Through 5k in 17:14, second one 16:55. Normally in 5k and any race I'd do I'd slow down in the middle, so this must have been quite relaxed. But I also didn't feel like picking up the pace, I was worried I wouldn't make it and wanted to play it safe.

In a race I'd probably start picking it up after 5k and create some pain, I think in a race I could achieve 33:30 (3:20/k). Definitely best aerobic shape I ever had.

This certifies the following paces:

CV - 3:20-3:24/k

Threshold - 3:29/k

Tinman Tempo/MP - 3:40-3:45/k

VO2MAX - 3:05/k

5k - 3:11-3:15/k

All paces should be appropriate in good conditions and with fast shoes. VO2MAX pace might be faster, so at some point I need a 2k TT to find out VO2MAX pace and also a 400 TT for basic speed.

For shoes - I hope it's just placebo effect, and that I'm not just suddenly a lot faster (which I am) cos of the new shoes. There is zero leg pain/fatigue with them, and I recover very fast. They fit me perfectly. However, I think it's a mistake to train in them - I'd rather let my legs work a bit more during workouts, than let the shoes take over. That will make my legs stronger, and in a TT/race I can put on the shoes and run even faster.

Well done! If you will not train in next% you should add 5 sec per km to your training paces. I am following you with interest. Like you I do my workouts often too fast.

Nice work. It's not easy running fast alone.

I think you are probably right about what this tells you about training paces, but agree with BZ that you should add time for the shoes. And add more for the terrain on your tempos. And maybe add some for the 40 seconds that you are guessing you can cut from your time. Or perhaps just stick to the slow end of the ranges.

Stay healthy!