Why train when you know that in 10 to 15 years when your time comes to vie for NCAA championships or Olympic teams some African ringers will gain citizenship and beat you out for all the spots?
Why train when you know that in 10 to 15 years when your time comes to vie for NCAA championships or Olympic teams some African ringers will gain citizenship and beat you out for all the spots?
skep tic wrote:
Why train when you know that in 10 to 15 years when your time comes to vie for NCAA championships or Olympic teams some African ringers will gain citizenship and beat you out for all the spots?
Non-African does not mean American.
HRE wrote:
For one thing, we've had a lot of "science" in the intervening decades telling people there's no need to run as much as some of us used to do. Running 20 miles a day for months on end is hard so there's a receptive audience for that sort of message. Another thing is professionalism. If you race all year for your living you want to be reasonably fresh and totally healthy all the time. You don't want to be dragging around after a 150 mile week and you maybe are afraid the 150 mile week will leave you hurt and unable to race. And not everyone in those years was running that kind of really big mileage. I think the 100 mile or so was pretty common for even the better guys with some very notable exceptions like the names the OP mentions.
HRE - didn’t these guys race frequently? They certainly raced more than the current crop does. Meyer and Malmo’s logs are posted on this board. They raced despite the high mileage and raced just fine at the end of, and in between, pretty high mileage weeks.
For those saying that the names I listed in my initial post wouldn’t be competitive today I guess it depends on how you define competitive. Many of those guys are sub-2:10 marathoners. That’s Top-10 in many majors. Give them Vaporflys and you’re getting into 2:07-2:08. Deek ran sub-2:08. Give him Vaporflys and he’s be right there with Rupp.
Or why don’t they train like Paavo Nurmi, Clarence DeMar, Tarzan Brown, and others? Perhaps research into newer, better training methods now exist.
old timey drink appreciator wrote:
Or why don’t they train like Paavo Nurmi, Clarence DeMar, Tarzan Brown, and others? Perhaps research into newer, better training methods now exist.
The difference being that the modern American guys are largely slower. 2:10 makes people giddy now.
physics defiant wrote:
old timey drink appreciator wrote:
Or why don’t they train like Paavo Nurmi, Clarence DeMar, Tarzan Brown, and others? Perhaps research into newer, better training methods now exist.
The difference being that the modern American guys are largely slower. 2:10 makes people giddy now.
Exactly. My point is that the runners of the previous era are running faster than those of the current era running around 100 miles per week. They claim to be unable to train more due to injury, fatigue, not being able to absorb the training, etc.
If Paavo Nurmi, Clarence DeMar, and Tarzan Brown we’re running faster than current pros then I’d ask a similar question.
In America, I think the NCAA system is the main issue. Kids are running faster than ever on the track, but they come out of college burnt out or with a history of injury. Maybe they stick around the sport for a couple years afterward, but they can't train consistently enough to keep improving or even reliably make it through a marathon cycle.
skep tic wrote:
Why train when you know that in 10 to 15 years when your time comes to vie for NCAA championships or Olympic teams some African ringers will gain citizenship and beat you out for all the spots?
This is closest to the answer. Non-Africans have pretty defeatist attitudes and/or are not willing to make the sacrifice necessary given that African runners are clearly superior. Decades ago, there were not nearly as many Africans trying to make it as pro runners. Now, pro running represents a very plausible way to economic security for life for many Africans. Hence, more of them are giving it a go than in the days of Shorter and Rogers. Westerners trying to compete today have to contend with hundreds of Africans 'blocking' their path to the top. Why bother? Easier to get an office job somewhere and just worry about winning your age-group at the local turkey trot.
For the 5000m, I can quickly count 10 Americans not born in Africa who have run much faster than any non-African born Americans from the great days of the 1970s and 1980s. Order might be a bit off for some of the 12:58 guys.
1. Chris Solinsky 12:55
2. Dathan Ritzenhein 12:56
3. Bob Kennedy 12:58
4. Matt Tegenkamp 12:58
5. Woody Kincaid 12:58
6. Galen Rupp 12:58
7. Matt Centrowitz 13:00
8. Evan Jager 13:02.40
9. Ben True 13:02.74
10. Hassan Mead 13:02.80
As per this thread's premise, I didn't include the American record holder and many time medalist for this country, Bernard Lagat (12:53) or medalist Paul Chelimo or our flag-bearer Lopez Lomong (13:00).
On the high school level
So, it's false that non-Africans in this country just dropped off the map and never came back, despite the poor physical fitness of the general population or other facts such as the much lower level of non-elite runners because of their low mileage (630 sub 2:46s at the 1983 NYC marathon).
Ironically, yes, most of us raced a lot more frequently in the '70s and '80s than is common now. But they trained through most of those races. Most of the money they earned was appearance rather than prize money and they didn't need to be in top form. I remember a 4th of July 15 km race in Altoona, Pa. that Rodgers won against a field of locals. His entry was a big selling point for the race, probably drew a bunch more entrants than they'd have gotten otherwise, and probably didn't disrupt his training.
The other thing too which I think ties in with this and that I've made some people mad at me for saying on other threads, is that I think there's generally more concern now about injuries in general than there was then and there's more fear of running really big miles now so few try it for any length of time. But again, it's not like everyone in the '70s was running 140 mile weeks all the time.
Just to finish that thought about the high school level, we've had depth far beyond that of the 1970s in the past decade and more.
Track and field News lists 24 sub 9 for 2M including conversions last year.
There is no question that the current track athletes are running faster than the previous generations. This thread is more regarding the marathon.
That being said, Solinsky, Kennedy, Rupp and True were running high mileage. Even Ritz was coming off a period of higher mileage marathon training. Many of the guys on that 5,000m list are BTC athletes and trained high mileage. Lomong was running 110 prior to his breakthrough this year. I guess this may argue against my point. 110 is obviously less than 120+. But the many of the guys on that 5,000m list we’re running 110+/- miles per week in training.
The OP mostly mentions marathon runners in his question. That was really the US's best pitch in the '70s to mid '80s, three Olympic medals, multiple wins at Fukuoka, Boston, New York. But in the 5,000 we kind of peaked in Tokyo in '64 and did not have any Olympic hardware or major international wins.
Yes, the BTC guys run high mileage. I don't know if Centro was doing 100 mpw but the others were likely doing close if not more. Lagat was not a high mileage guy but he was also a 3:26 1500m runner.
I agree that high mileage is essential for the marathon and that we've lacked the high quality depth in the marathon for a long time, especially if you add minutes to the recent Vaporfly times such as the 2:09-2:11 times recently. Mileage on its own, though, is no panacea. I'm running 110+ without fast workouts because of recurrent calf problems and as a result I couldn't run very fast at all in a race. The workouts are the real key but on the world level, you need to do everything.
zxcvzcxv wrote:
For the 5000m, I can quickly count 10 Americans not born in Africa who have run much faster than any non-African born Americans from the great days of the 1970s and 1980s. Order might be a bit off for some of the 12:58 guys.
1. Chris Solinsky 12:55
2. Dathan Ritzenhein 12:56
3. Bob Kennedy 12:58
4. Matt Tegenkamp 12:58
5. Woody Kincaid 12:58
6. Galen Rupp 12:58
7. Matt Centrowitz 13:00
8. Evan Jager 13:02.40
9. Ben True 13:02.74
10. Hassan Mead 13:02.80
As per this thread's premise, I didn't include the American record holder and many time medalist for this country, Bernard Lagat (12:53) or medalist Paul Chelimo or our flag-bearer Lopez Lomong (13:00).
On the high school level
So, it's false that non-Africans in this country just dropped off the map and never came back, despite the poor physical fitness of the general population or other facts such as the much lower level of non-elite runners because of their low mileage (630 sub 2:46s at the 1983 NYC marathon).
Nope, don't buy it. The times these guys above ran were in set up races with pacers, better spikes/footwear, nutrition etc..
The old time greats would have run just as fast as these guys or faster, it is a different mindset now, thats all. The best would still be the best because they believed they could do it and were willing to do it.
What HRE said.
Mead born in Africa 1989, came to US in 2000 according to Wikipedia.
Hounddogharrier wrote:
Two reasons: kids are a lot heavier than they were 40 years ago and there are a lot more endurance sports to choose from than in 1980. Less talent means you don’t have to work as hard to be the top dog .
Idiot.
Next you'll be calling Abebe Bikila a jogger
I buy it because the old timers of the 1970s and 1980s not only had similar tracks and a European circuit with pacing that was usually better and better paid than today, but some faster competitors, and they were all running 13:11 or slower, a big difference. In the 1980s in the 1500m, there were multiple 3:29-3:31 in the 1500m, for instance, while in the 5000m, there were some really fast guys to chase, ranging from Said Aouita (13:00 and 12:58) to Davie Moorcroft (13:00) and Sydney Maree (13:01?).
True about Mead.
Cause training has changed? Everyone is evolving and so is training. Don’t always have to do 140 a week. Cross training is a big plus now.