Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 2/16/20

Lots of big weeks and positive injury progress out there. Way to be everybody.

hhw: Looking good, best of luck. You got it. Good move running with race clothes and gel.

moke: Nice racing in the heat. Good strong closing mile.

RGM: Walmsley knows whats up. Sleep is like doping for me now. 7 hours and I am barely human. 8 hours is ok. 9 hours makes it feel like I didn't run the day before.

AJ: Congrats on the big PR and milestone! Gritty racing. Must feel nice to really open it up outside after going indoors.

Tyler: Nice Friday, that seems to be a favorite workout format around here amongst the marathoners.

cd: Congrats on the mileage PR. I vote for long run status if only for all that climbing!

Cocoon: Monster Saturday with the hills. Very nice.

mike: Sorry to hear about Tokyo. Any chance to jump in a race back home and use the fitness?

HHH Runner wrote:

going faster miles an hour wrote:

HHH: Strong training, strong racing. Thursday workout on a 930m loop somewhere? Go get ‘em at Nationals this weekend!

AJ - Coronavirus isn't a 'thing' here yet. Isolated cases from one guy basically, no new ones for almost a week. Obviously any kind of mass event is being seriously looked at but I haven't heard anything substantial about VLM being called off. I'm more worried about my trip to Kenya in 2 weeks time.

Good report. Thanks HHH. I’d like to hear more about this trip to Kenya. You going there to train at altitude?

M - 8

F - 6

S - 12 (4AM/8PM)

Total: 26 miles

Bummer of a week. Had some unforeseen issues midweek and missed a few days.

RRR: good job getting back into it.

HHW: Good luck this weekend.

jot quill: Very nice. A lot of on/offs impressive.

SC: Nice progression/flyer

OR: Looking good.

Sub 6: Looking at your PR's and how you have been running lately is pretty impressive. Good luck the recovery.

GFMAH: Looking good.

moke: Congrats on the win!!!

NiceGuy: 21 on a treadmill would seem like an eternity.

LancRunner: 67.6 and a Real Long Run!!! Great job!!!

RunGuy Midwest: Nice week! I like the little bursts. They'll pay off.

AJ: Great racing Congrats!!! Very Impressed. How are you feeling after Sunday?

GT: Dang you have improved since I first started coming on here. Keep it up.

THOUGHTSLEADER: Looking good!

pewow: Looking good. Skiing sounds fun.

darkwave: Good Luck with the taper. Looking good.

drcrusher: Great week! Very smart move staying in bed Thur. with how the week started.

TRL: Impressive.

coffee dad: Great job on the weekly mileage and well rounded week training.

BHViking: Dang that's a lot of miles on a treadmill. I might have to try surges on one. Looking good.

Still Improving: Be careful doing to long of long runs.

statfanatic: Impressive as always. Smart move backing off.

npurdy1112: Looking good!

fnd: Very vice!

Most shoutouts to follow, but since I never got around to them last week, here's at least one:

Tyler: That half!!! You'll absolutely crush 2:30 unless you go nuts and run the first half in 1:11 or something... That's got to be worth 2:26 at absolute worst. Super impressive!

My week:

Male, 30, 5'10'', 125 lbs

PBs: 16:49 (2020), 1:14:28 (2019), 2:36:50 (2019)

Goal race: Fargo marathon 5/9/2020.

Goal time: 2:32:xx

Upcoming: Knoxville half 3/29/2020

-Monday:

AM: 6 miles @ 8:51

PM: 9 miles @ 8:39

-Tuesday:

AM: 12 miles @ 8:58

-Wednesday:

PM: 2 mile warm up, 4 x 3200 (800 rest), 3 x 400 (200 rest). 1 mile cool down. 15 total.

3200's: 11:44, 11:45, 11:44, 11:54.

400's: 79, 82, 79

-Thursday:

AM: 7 miles @ 8:54

PM: 11 miles @ 8:35

-Friday:

AM: 5 miles @ 8:48

PM: 8 miles @ 8:17

-Saturday:

AM: 11 miles @ 8:54

Sunday:

AM: 18 miles @ 7:10 with 14 @6:40ish

101 total.

Traveling this weekend so shortened the long run by a couple of miles (didn't have quite enough time for more), but still pretty pleased. In a stretch of a couple of brutal weeks at work so have been really tired even without the running; hopefully that won't last much longer. Similar week but with the longest long run of the build upcoming (24 miles), then thankfully an easy week...

8:30 pace felt like I was in the easiest non-lollygagging gear. "On" but not pushing at all.

Guy - This is basically what I'm trying to do right now but i haven't really thought of it in those terms. "Easiest non-lollygagging gear". Love it. "On" but not pushing at all is another great way of putting it. I'm with you in that I absolutely want to go easy but not TOO easy if that makes sense.

AJ - Great job going Sub 16! What a great recount of the race as well. Some of the storytelling here is absolutely riveting.

mikemike - Sorry about not being able to do Tokyo. You sound legitimately bummed.

going faster miles an hour wrote:

darkwave: Nice week. I don’t know if this is something you’ve talked about before, but I’d be interested to hear more about your thoughts on the shorter vs. longer marathon block.

So....I think many runners go with way too long a training cycle, and are way past their sell date by the time their marathon rolls around. More is not always better in terms of length of a cycle - if you have 18 weeks before a marathon, I think one is better off doing two shorter cycles - train for something shorter, and then shift to the marathon.

That being said, I don't think everyone needs to, or should, do cycles as short as I do. I'm someone that

a) maintains a pretty high volume year round (so no need to build up)

b) has no issue covering the distance of the marathon - (26 miles is not terribly hard for me, even when out of shape. 26 miles FAST is the challenge)

c) due to age/autoimmune issues/whathaveyou I get injured/overtrained easily if I'm not mindful.

So...for all those reasons, it makes sense to limit my marathon training to no more than 6 weeks or so. And if I've done a marathon recently (within the past 4-5 months) we can go shorter than that. But others are different, and might not be able to get away with what I can, in terms of marathon training.

That being said, my preference for myself would be what I did last year, with essentially 3 phases: a) after a break, start back with hills and aerobic intervals on the roads. Do this for a few weeks.

b) shift to racing 5Ks and miles

c) do about 6 weeks of marathon training, followed by a half-marathon raced all out as the final hard workout, and then taper.

Basically, I get myself strong, then work on my weaknesses, and then shift to my strengths.

Someone with different strengths and weaknesses would obviously train in a different way. If the sheer distance of 26 miles is an obstacle when out of shape, then you need to spend time base building before shifting to your strengths. [I never base build. I speed build.]

darkwave - What a great post...makes perfect sense. You have made me feel A LOT better.

Pappy - I feel good. Weight down to 184.7. The legs were a bit more tired than normal but I had none of the usual post-marathon quad soreness. After normal easy runs yesterday I tried to do 4x2T this AM and was cashed after 3 reps so I called it. Discretion is the better part of valor. Weight was down to 184.7.

DW - agree completely. 18 weeks is way too long for me. Most I can handle is about 12 (including the taper). And “base building”? Meh. At least go hammer some quarters or something. No pain no gain.

BHViking wrote:

8:30 pace felt like I was in the easiest non-lollygagging gear. "On" but not pushing at all.

Guy - This is basically what I'm trying to do right now but i haven't really thought of it in those terms. "Easiest non-lollygagging gear". Love it. "On" but not pushing at all is another great way of putting it. I'm with you in that I absolutely want to go easy but not TOO easy if that makes sense.

Yeah, makes sense. This is my interpretation of an easy training pace vs. just running slowly.

I think at first I was finding it not through sense of effort or by staring at the watch, but mechanically: where clumsy shuffling smooths out into a more efficient stride.

Great post darkwave!

Also agree with Angryjohnny about base building... Just run.

Some selected comments, I have been awful lately:

RRR - comeback is looking good so far. Stay healthy, man.

HHW - Best of luck next week. Stay patient early. I see a nicely executed negative split for you if you go out at 6:50 pace and gradually work it down.

JQ - awesome, it will be cool to meet up.

OR - thanks for the well wishes. I am feeling good. Fitness is coming along. I’m glad to see things are finally turning a corner for you also.

Lancrunner - Big week. Helluva on / off session you put in.

moke - congrats on the race. Solid time and effort.

Pappy - glad to see you building.

AJ - another big week. Congrats again on your hard fought race, whatever the distance was. You are getting fit for the big race, which is London.

GT - a day off? You’ve really been ultra consistent since the start of this build. Strong tempo last week.

NP - glad to have you back! Training looks as strong and consistent as ever.

GNR1 - I still agree with others that the 2 mile / 1.5 mile / 1 mile workout is a monster. I don’t think I can run a single 2 miles at 5k pace in training.

HHH - congrats on the XC race.

gfmah - the “Five Gears” workout is not mentally challenging at all. It’s one of my favorite workouts because it flies by in no time and each segment is just a minute at a time. It’s actually really fun to do.

cocoon - big week. Congrats on the mileage high.

darkwave - I am also a fan of the short marathon build. Your training looks like it’s peaking at the right time.

Thank you for this post Darkwave. I was literally thinking on Monday about how 16-18 weeks just seems way too long. 6 may be pushing it for mere mortals but 10-12 seems like it could be a sweet spot. I think I remember hearing stone saying he could go longer than 12 awhile back.

What opinions do others have out there?

angryjohnny wrote:

HHH Runner wrote:

AJ - Coronavirus isn't a 'thing' here yet. Isolated cases from one guy basically, no new ones for almost a week. Obviously any kind of mass event is being seriously looked at but I haven't heard anything substantial about VLM being called off. I'm more worried about my trip to Kenya in 2 weeks time.

Good report. Thanks HHH. I’d like to hear more about this trip to Kenya. You going there to train at altitude?

Forgot to say congrats for your 5k too, lovely report and excellent running. Top stuff.

Yeah, me and a few of the other guys (who you'll hopefully meet) are going out to Iten for 2 weeks. 2400m or so. Should be really good fun and I thought, why not? Lots of slow mileage, fartleks and low fat food is the idea. I'll be the slowest of the group although not by too much.

Once I get back it'll be 3 weeks of fairly important races, Southern 12 Stage Relays, World Half Champs and then National 12 Stage, which is the idea of the timing.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Thank you for this post Darkwave. I was literally thinking on Monday about how 16-18 weeks just seems way too long. 6 may be pushing it for mere mortals but 10-12 seems like it could be a sweet spot. I think I remember hearing stone saying he could go longer than 12 awhile back.

What opinions do others have out there?

I limit myself to 12 weeks tops. Sometimes 8-10 weeks. But I know everyone is different and responds differently.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

GNR1 - I still agree with others that the 2 mile / 1.5 mile / 1 mile workout is a monster. I don’t think I can run a single 2 miles at 5k pace in training.

Yeah, I’m starting to get the same feeling myself. I’m guessing the heavy fog threw off my gps a bit. Workout was targeted around 8k-10k pace (which I figured was around 5:05-10), however after splitting 4:50-55 avg for everything I’m starting to think it was a gps screw up and not incredible fitness gains ?

Just anecdotally I might go a bit higher. Might be a coincidence but before both marathons I got sick with about 3-4 weeks to go. Maybe could solve with more strategic down weeks but I like 14 weeks with the first couple weeks easing into the workouts

GNR1 wrote:

The Stone Cutter wrote:

GNR1 - I still agree with others that the 2 mile / 1.5 mile / 1 mile workout is a monster. I don’t think I can run a single 2 miles at 5k pace in training.

Yeah, I’m starting to get the same feeling myself. I’m guessing the heavy fog threw off my gps a bit. Workout was targeted around 8k-10k pace (which I figured was around 5:05-10), however after splitting 4:50-55 avg for everything I’m starting to think it was a gps screw up and not incredible fitness gains ?

You will hear several of us espouse this quite often, but as long as you ran that workout at the appropriate effort level, then you accomplished the purpose of the session, regardless of the exact pace. In all honesty, even 10k pace would be pretty tough for most runners to pull off with that type of session.

Long story short, you put in some great work. Which you regularly do. And it will start showing up in races for you.

HHH Runner wrote:

angryjohnny wrote:

Good report. Thanks HHH. I’d like to hear more about this trip to Kenya. You going there to train at altitude?

Forgot to say congrats for your 5k too, lovely report and excellent running. Top stuff.

Yeah, me and a few of the other guys (who you'll hopefully meet) are going out to Iten for 2 weeks. 2400m or so. Should be really good fun and I thought, why not? Lots of slow mileage, fartleks and low fat food is the idea. I'll be the slowest of the group although not by too much.

.

That sounds awesome. If you bump into Kipchoge tell him AJ is coming for him in London.