Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 2/9/20

Nut buster those workouts

The shortness is an interesting thing about that school of training (true also of the Mona fartlek, named for Steve Moneghetti). I'm definitely not an expert, but my sense is that the relatively low volume made it possible to get in high quality work on a regular basis within the context of a system that featured steady, progressive, or surging long runs. From what you've said about your training, could be a good fit for you.

gfman - Thanks very much. I appreciate the good vibes. I am feeling better and better. Got very close to a true flyer in a pre-dawn dash around town this morning...10.25 at 6:32.6 overall, with the last 5.25 all sub-6:25 and in decent control (6:16, 6:11 to finish). And that was after averaging 6:30 in yesterday’s run (9.5). I have had a nice high all day...

I'm posting late and we are 7 pages in already, but what the heck.

Male 51 5'8" 137lbs

PRs

Marathon 2:57:06 Dec 2018

5k 19:00 June 2018

Upcoming Races

April 2020 Boston

Oct. 2020 Chicago

Mon. 6.6mi Easy

Tues. 60min bike trainer

Wed. 30min bike trainer + 15min elliptical

Thurs. 36min bike trainer

Fri. 1.4mi Easy - Neighborhood damage assessment

Sat. Downhill ski

Sun. 9mi Easy

Total 17.mi

Odd week for me. I had a calf problem crop up at the end of the Monday's run so I had to resort to cross training to not make it worse. I let temptation get the best of me on Friday and went out for a run instead of giving my calf a break. Curiosity got the cat and I went out for a run to check things out since there were reports that a tornado touched down not far from my home. Turns out the reports were true and judging by the damage the report appeared to be true. People from NOAA came out and determined an EF0 tornado made its way through town with a path that was within a mile of where I live. It seems that I resumed running too early on Sunday with my calf starting to flare up 5mi into the run. Back to cross training for me. No worries, I'll have things back on track soon.

Best of luck with the calf, SI.

Track workout went OK, but per usual I found my self in no-man's land. Two guys were running 5:20-5:30 pace or faster (too fast for me to be executing anything like the workout's prescribed pace). Pacer was leading group at 6:05 pace (felt too easy as I tempo with no rest in that neighborhood). Ended out running the first 200 with the pacer at 45-46 and then dropping a 2:55 800 solo. Felt comfortable, though of course taking some wind.

Also just noting that 400-200 workout looks really tough. A fast paced run for 200 ceases to be "rest" really quick. Just plugging in some of my own paces I'm trying to think how long I would last. Let's say 85 second 400s (very doable) with a 200 at 7:00 pace (55 seconds). Would work out to an unevenly paced 18:40 three miles. Could do it, but not a piece of cake.

F43, 5'6"

Upcoming races:

half 3/22

Cherry Blossom 4/5

Boston 4/20

2020 results: 2/9, half-marathon, 1:35:19

Haven't posted in a couple weeks because I was on vacation. I suppose I could have made the time to post ..... but I was on vacation. And though I've been home for two days, it's been difficult getting back to real-world life and the 3-hour time difference. So here it is Wednesday and I'll finally get my last two weeks down:

Jan 27-Feb 2:

Mo: off

Tu: 10.2 E

We: a.m. 8.4 very E, p.m. 6.2 E

Th: 8.4 done as 2 E + 5 T + 1.4 E. I went out planning on 2x3mi at half-marathon pace but my legs just were having trouble getting to and sustaining that pace in the first mile (7:10 or better) so I just dropped back to do 5 at M pace, but ended up between goal M and T paces with the 5 miles all around 7:30, +/- 5 seconds.

Fr: 10.6 E

Sa: off, traveling all day to Palm Springs.

Su: long run plans thwarted. Had hoped to run in Joshua Tree NP but had not quite remembered how curvy and completely shoulder-less much of the park road is. Thought I might then run on Geology Tour Road (something like an 11 mile out and back with a little lollipop loop) but husband balked at idea of me running into the heart of the park alone where there would be few people if any and absolutely no cell coverage. So ended up hiking a couple miles and then later doing 6.3 E back in Palm Desert. It was hot. 80 degrees. I refused to complain :-)

Total for the week: approx. 50 miles.

Last week (Feb 3 - Feb 9): I was in Palm Desert, California for the whole week. Good grief it was wonderful. The weather. Oh lawd, the weather. After the weather, my favorite part is how the streets are long, long, long and straight, with wide clear sidewalks along them so you basically never have to set foot in the road except when you occasionally hit a crosswalk (major roads are like a mile apart). Mileage piles up with you barely realizing it because you're like, "I'll just run around the block" and it's almost 5 miles. Also did a lot of extracurricular activity in the form of hiking.

Mo: 10.2 mi E Windy but lovely morning temps; approx. 4.8 total mi moderate hiking in two different canyons

Tu: off because we left very early to go to Catalina Island, hiked almost 5 miles with 1500ft elevation gain

We: 9.3 E, legs a wee sore in different places from the prior day's hike; 2.8 mi moderate desert hiking

Th: off, 7 miles hiking the most spectacular yet terrifying hike I've ever done (slot canyons with ropes and ladders -- I'm afraid of heights) outside Mecca (Ladder Canyon)

Fr: 5 E felt so good; 1.3 mi easy hike in Joshua Tree

Sa: 5 E, felt slightly less good but still good; 2.8 mi moderate desert hiking

Su: 13.1 -- raced the Palm Desert half-marathon, then 3 mi easy hiking in Joshua Tree

Total miles: ~43 running, not bad for vacation; plus nearly 30 miles hiking.

Race report: first of my 2020 goal races. I ran this race last year and I gave myself only one basic imperative: do better. Didn't want to put any pressure on myself for what is not the main event for the spring. Last year I never felt as good as I wanted to, early pace felt way harder than it should have and then my Garmin froze on me, throwing me all off. This year, I felt really good from the start. I woudn't say quite "great" but, really, really good. The conditions were ideal. The course is deceptive: because the whole area is in what appears to be a flat desert valley, it kind of gives the impression of also being flat and easy, but it's actually got a very long uphill -- increasingly steeper -- between miles 2 and 5, then a rather short downhill reprieve before flattening into another shallow uphill mile or so which, after going around a corner, turns into a much sharper uphill mile-plus, where you make the same elevation gain you did in the early part of the race but in half the distance. After that slog it's downhill for 2-plus miles and then flat to the finish so by then you kind of forget that it wasn't really the easiest course in the middle.

As I said, I felt really good and so just ran with it. I didn't often look at my watch, and when I did I was usually 7:15 or under. I maintained around 7:20-7:25 on the long early hill miles, and when I was only 7:39 on the steeper mile I was pretty happy. Cruised in as best I could as my legs were tiring in the last 5K. I was trying to hang with a woman who had been ahead of me a little way, but had stepped to curb to adjust her shoe or stretch. I passed her then, she eventually caught up and went ahead of me again only to step off once more. Again I passed her, again she caught up to me and we ran more or less together as I tried to stay with her, but in the last 1.5 or so miles she got just enough ahead of me at just enough faster that I couldn't quite hang. She got me at the finish by 2 seconds. I am not too down about it though because if she hadn't ever stepped off the course I never would have been with her anyway, and her being there definitely pulled me along anyway. Other than her, I would have been mostly alone for much of the race as it thinned out up front pretty quickly. I ended up running 1:35:19 which was almost 3:30 faster than I ran last year. 4th place female overall (4 places higher than last year), repeated as 1st place F40-44, and was 21st overall in the race (20 places higher than last year). So, much improved and only ~30 sec slower than in Des Moines last fall so I was very, very satisfied with the result considering that I was not at all babying my legs all week.

Looking forward to the hard work between now and the next half-marathon on 3/22 where I hope to kick some butt. The new course for the Caesar Rodney was released and it still has a nice hill in the middle, so I'll refocus on getting some solid hill work done (which I need to do anyway for Boston).

Can't say I'm glad to be back, but will use this week to get back to normal and happy to be posting again. Did not so much like the picture of the sliced finger, as 1) I am squeamish and 2) it brought back all kinds of horrible, horrible memories of the time a few years ago when I sliced a sizable chunk of my left forefinger OFF, I'm telling you that picture had almost nothing on what I did. But other than that, enjoyed reading about all your poor weather running while thinking about how wonderful I had it the last week, haha :-)

coffee dad - congrats with the new high mileage

darkwave - really good long run on sunday, im surprised you are doing a 3 week taper with a shorter build up, unless it is more gradual

OR - the legs are feeling good, i've been having fun with some speed work

stat - glad you were still able to get some quality in after the mile race

surgical - best of luck coming back from surgery

mdubs - congrats on the 5k PR, splits look pretty good

NiceGuy - adding strides is a good idea, could do them after your tempo effort run instead of the day before (or both?). 2x2 workout was good, in a few weeks hopefully it can be 4x2 at the same pace will set you up well for the M goal

Guy Broman - I'd expect with a low 28 5mile that 1:18-1:19 would be the HM goal. My wife and I own three copies of once a runner, one signed. a fun read with many good quotes/chapters. I thought after I posted the few quotes last week that most people devoted enough to be on this thread don't really need the push/motivation to get out there on the bad days but it is still fun to have the reminder.

Tyler-Runs-Lifts - congrats on that HM, im sure it was nice to get so far under goal

jewbacca - glad the injuries are subsiding

Dr Crusher - welcome back to the real world, sounds like the vacation was fun. nice job in the HM. I didnt realize that CR13.1 had a different course this year, just checked it out and it looks like the took out the whole waterfront part and added on around the park (aka my old stomping grounds). I still think I will stay away from that race for a few years, little early in the year to be in good shape for it and its too hilly to act as a good pre marathon HM, unless the M is also hilly i suppose

gfmph & general thread opinion- Yes the 3x1600s and 4800(solo,wind) were similar pace, and even this week's tuesday workout of 2x3200 was about the same pace. I made myself a 14 week plan (posted week is week 2) where I build mileage for 4 weeks, sustain for 8 and taper for 2. Ive already built more rapidly than planned and

it will be 3-9-2 instead. anyhow the first 3-4 weeks I am trying to stay at slower than VO2max speed/type workouts and keep it to longer ~1hr race pace/ aerobic work, along with some focus on speed (strides, hill sprints, some 200s all out). After talking to a local retired pro I am unsure if it is the best way to treat those first few weeks but I think im sticking to it. I have a feeling starting workouts like 800 to 1600s at 5k to 10k pace and continuing for 10-12 weeks would get me feeling stale/burnt out by the end. Chances are the volume is more important than the workouts at this stage anyway. Any thoughts on whether it is ineffective to try for weeks that have say 4x3200 @ HM and 5 @ HM in the same week?

The earlier referenced malmo thread had me thinking about a few things here.

Most of the "structured" workouts he did were 400s or 800s, with a few 1200s or miles in there, and even a few 200s. The rest of the workouts tended to be less structured fartleks, 5 on/ 5 off, 10 on/10 off (though there is structure, it's not like... super structured on distance and speed, just feel). I was thinking that it would be interesting to incorporate some of that into my training. Maybe throw some hills in as well, though I always think about a hill day being quality, when really, it can be added to the back of an easy day.

So a typical week could look like...

M - Easy

T - AM Easy, PM - Track work (VO2 Max stuff, 400/800, maybe even play with 200s)

W - Easy/Strides

Th - AM easy, 5on/ 5off for 70 min.

F - Easy/Hills

Sa - Easy/Strides

Su - "Long" run

Not sure. Just thinking out loud.

So that does nothing to address RunnerSam's question on it being ineffective to have 4x3200@HM and 5 @ HM in the same week. I don't think it's ineffective at all, especially early in a cycle. It seems that an emphasis on moderate running (aka ~HM pace) is a great way to build the engine and is probably best suited at the beginning of a build. Just my ramblings though...

15.25 at 6:49 overall in the hills this morning (6:24, 6:18 to finish...cruising), with plenty left in the tank. That’s three good ones in a row. OR is back, baby!

Time to start beasting it up!

outsiderunner wrote:

15.25 at 6:49 overall in the hills this morning (6:24, 6:18 to finish...cruising), with plenty left in the tank. That’s three good ones in a row. OR is back, baby!

Time to start beasting it up!

Let's go!

You got it, Tyler!

The fuse has been lit.

All of these are great reasons. We had a discussion on doubles a few months back. I really liked what darkwave said about how you can keep training more anabolic versus catabolic. Granted you still need to get in some runs in the catabolic range but you'll have more recovery runs with a higher frequency with doubles. Chances are more miles too for an added benefit.

1. Yeah, if I could do 10 in singles I'd probably do 10-14 in doubles depending on the day. Chances are I'd pick up 10-15 extra miles a week keeping the same stress level.

2. 4/6, 5/5-8, 6/5-9, maybe even up to 7/5-9. I'd do the shorter run in the morning just because it'd work out better for me. I'm basing this off of training for a half or under.

3. Yeah, might be good to get a long run in once a week to 9 days though. I'd probably do a single that day.

4. I always try to stay away from any run under 30 minutes. You figure 2 miles might be 13-16 minutes at easy pace. By the time you get going you're about to stop. That doesn't give much time to get anything useful done for lowering lactate, burning off by products or stimulating the cardio system. The laundry to gains ratio just doesn't seem worth it.

outsiderunner wrote:

15.25 at 6:49 overall in the hills this morning (6:24, 6:18 to finish...cruising), with plenty left in the tank. That’s three good ones in a row. OR is back, baby!

Time to start beasting it up!

Attaboy OR. Nice work.

RunnerSam wrote:

darkwave - really good long run on sunday, im surprised you are doing a 3 week taper with a shorter build up, unless it is more gradual

It's gradual. This week is more of a "transition" then an actual taper. Same weekly mileage, but spread out over more days, with 2 smaller workouts instead of one big mid-week one, and just a 16 mile long run. Next week (two weeks out) I'll be easing up on the weekly mileage.

As for your 4x3200 AND 5 at HMP - I'll fess up that I don't like doing two workouts at the same pace in a row. I think it can make one a bit stale mentally, and physically you're just poking the same thing twice in a row. I like to bounce a bit around, to alternate stimuli and also keep stuff fresher.

If it were me (and I'm not you), I'd speed up the 3200s slightly, to like 10 mile effort, and slow the 5 miles to just slightly slower than HMP. It just gives you that bit of variety, while still working towards the same goal.

But....I'd also be more likely to have the 3200s one week, the 5 miles the next, and add in a hill workout between the two. Again, for a bit more variety.

DOUBLES:

Ideally I'd do something close to 8-4 doubles most of the time, and I think that'd cover about all of the reasons GoFaMiAnHo listed in one clean sweep. Unfortunately life isn't always ideal so in reality I squeeze in what I can, when I can, when I feel up to it, and live by the maxim 'something is better than nothing unless it's too much.'

SAME WORKOUT PACES BACK TO BACK:

Like Darkwave I also try to avoid it now. I think running only one pace would put me at risk of staleness as much as running at a faster pace sometimes would. That said, I don't have an issue with one week having 4x2mi and 5mi tempos in it at similar paces, my only question is: what do you do the following week? If you're going to hit those same paces again, then that's where the flatness question comes into play over time. If you're going to do something different, why not intersperse those two weeks anyway? Each week doesn't have to follow the same structure. Examples could be:

week 1:

-5mi straight tempo hmp-ish

-8k worth of long intervals (1k-2k) with shorter rest around 10k-ish. Call it CV if you like branding.

week 2:

-4x2mi tempo hmp-ish

-alternations workout similar to previously discussed here (hmp-ish and steady or hmp-ish and mp-ish)

I don't have all the physiology reference here to support this suggestion, but I do think about the weightlifting analogy of not working the same muscle sets in back to back workouts. I think probably the Daniels devotees would tell you it's fine though...because your only other options are I or R, and for longer races you'll want to be focusing on T, right? They gotta be running a lot of the same pace in that structure. I think as a reference I read this in Brad Hudson's book over a year ago (he defines 3 different 'tempo' paces), but I didn't really learn to apply it practically till Slo helped me with that sub17 5k last winter. Now I think anything from 10k pace up to a little slower than marathon pace can be an aerobic/threshold/tempo type effort. There's like a whole minute/mi of range there that you can play with that will work the system, but slightly differently and in complimentary ways. For Hudson reference without the book:

https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20824856/brad-hudsons-targeted-training/

DEEKS QUARTERS:

Slo had me to do that before my sub17 attempt. He suggested targets of 48s 200s and 79s 400s. I slowed a lot on the 200s over the workout (slowest was 54s), averaging 50s and 80s overall, or 17:19 for 4800m. 2 weeks later I ran 16:34 for the 5k. While I was doing it I was filled with dread with what I had left to do. Then all of a sudden it was over and I wished I hadn't been such a wimp on the float 200s. It's a tough workout. (At the time Slo said he estimated 5k finishing time pretty close to whatever he ran in that workout for 4800m, but that dude's got some wicked strength running capability.)

drcrusher: Very solid race. Bodes really well for a big push in the spring.

Runner Sam: Ooh, jealous of the signed copy.

Yeah, I suppose 1:20 is going to be a B or C goal. I wanted to start workouts or hit a shorter race before settling on a specific goal.

I didn't know they were going to ask me for a time estimate at registration last week, and I abruptly spit out 1:18 so I guess we're going with that for now.

8/4 Doubles are the bees knees.

Gordon Tremeshko wrote: Now I think anything from 10k pace up to a little slower than marathon pace can be an aerobic/threshold/tempo type effort. There's like a whole minute/mi of range there that you can play with that will work the system, but slightly differently and in complimentary ways.

I agree with this, and I think it's really beneficial to make sure you touch all around that range. Also, I worry that when one does the same workout, or even a different workout targeting the same pace, in immediate succession, it's tempting to try to beat one's previous performance in the workout.

As an aside, I also personally think that 5 miles at HMP is a pretty hard workout - harder than I would want to do. I always do 4 at HMP, 5 a bit slower. (and I find I get solid results with those slower, 5 mile tempo efforts. again, we're all different).

I think it's the 2nd version of Jack Daniels that gives guidelines for how to adjust tempo pace when one stretches it out past 20 minutes. I run my tempos off of feel, but I've always found that I end up hitting what JD says I should be hitting for tempos of 25 minutes (for me, that's roughly 4 miles) and 30 minutes (a bit less than 5 miles for me)

Ok, the 4% is on sale for like $60 off. Someone talk me into buying those instead of the next%... shoe companies kill me, I know deep down the difference isn't enough for me to buy the next% at full price... but why is it so hard for me to pull the trigger on the 4% b/c I'm like... really? Shouldn't I just get the latest and greatest if I'm gonna dole out this cash?

So many things wrong with me.