Daniels plan-Running threshold and intervals too fast

Yes, with 2-3 minutes jog sounds fine. Much easier than doing it straight through. For those who like Tinman, that's in fact a common workout of his: say 4 x 6 minutes (or 1600 if you're on a track) at threshold with 2 min jog recovery followed by short, fast reps or hill repeats or both. Usually preceded and followed by 15-20 minutes of running.

hobbyJogger01 wrote:

The Floyd wrote:

I didn't say that Tinman said tempo runs are useless, I said that he doesn't have his runners do them in the manner you're advocating. Not at threshold pace for 20+ minutes. Occasional tempo runs of that duration or longer sure, but those are MP pace or progressive.

I don't want to jump into the disagreement between you and Phil so don't respond as if I am (please and thank you). If this were more like HM pace for 4x5 mins (20 min total work at that pace) w/ jog recoveries in the middle of a longer run, would your opinion change?

Another factor in this is how mentally tough someone is in a race vs training. Seasoned runners (like a fast masters guy) will likely have a great mental game for race day and crush it beyond what most runners of similar fitness can do. Seasoned runners also seem to develop good sense about how hard to go in training. No medals for workouts- right? Therefore a threshold pace calculated from race times will be harder for a seasoned runner, as compared to those less experienced or those just not as mentally tough in races.

I would agree that the T pace I got based on my vdot from a recent race were too aggressive for me. That being said, the race was a rather flat 25K with temps around freezing (this is good for me being 185 or so). My marathon training took place during the summer in much hillier conditions. Some mornings it was 80+ degrees and upper 90s humidity. Even on nice weather days and flat ground I'd almost feel like I'd have to taper to hit his paces. So...I slowed down some and rather was "felt" like tempo rather than care what the pace was. T pace was around 6 min/mi for me, on bad days (weather, fatigue, sleep deprevation, combination of...) I'd be 6:40-45. On better days, 6:0x, it all felt about the same though (actually the 6:45 pace in 88 degrees and 96% humidity felt worse).

It seems like you may need to go more by feel, picking a pace you can maintain. In addition, you need to get a better handle on what your vdot actually is. Go race a 5K or something.

I am an avid Daniels guy and a somewhat accomplished masters runner.

I will say that a straight 20 minute tempo run and Daniels' T pace is among the tougher workouts I ever do. I have always had trouble with them, starting with the first one I did as a new runner walking on to his college team.

Cruise intervals, however, usually feel very achievable to me. The standard 4 x 2 miles at T pace with 2:00 rest usually doesn't start to hurt until late into the third cruise interval (although the first one sometimes starts out rough).

I cannot agree more with those who are saying to find a race and use that to establish your current VDOT and then use that as your baseline for training paces.

Generally though, if you are barely holding on at 8 or 9 minutes into a 10 minute cruise interval, you are going too fast.

Daniels likes to use the talking test to gauge effort: when you start getting somewhat deep into your T effort, you should be able to respond to a question if asked one, but you should not be able to maintain a conversation. I use the pledge of allegiance: If I can get out an entire clause of it at a time, but cannot recite it continuously, I can be pretty sure my effort level is appropriate.

Smoove,

Always been a fan of yours, both for your good masters running and for being one of the few if only thoughtful Daniels defenders on the board. I don't like Daniels schedules because I think the paces and workouts (volume) are overly hard, and we've had that exchange before though I don't remember if I would have been using the same user name.

You're some years younger than I am so we grade out about the same if age grade calculators have any meaning. From my perspective, you're an example of why "bad" (Daniels) training can still lead to good results for the right talent and work ethic, plus the confidence and experience to hold back when Daniels would lead you astray. :-) (I'm joking...sort of).

But I do think people that get overly concerned with the specifics of day-to-day training, like there are magic workouts, when what really matters is getting it broadly right without overcooking yourself. You definitely seem to have that down. I just think that Daniels's books are loaded guns and most people take the schedules and tables too literally and overdo it. Keep up the good running!

my vdot is spot on for T, I and R pace but i've always felt the easy pace way too fast

So hold on, according to one poster, if you can do the T, I, and R pace that corresponds to a specific marathon time, it means you can run that time "right now"? Or do you have to be FULL tapered?

I think its 2 different things right? Because if you can run a workout that projects you are in 2h50 shape in the middle of a training block, it means your actual marathon time is faster than that even if you aren't currently using the paces the paces in training which correspond to that time.

Is this the right way to think about the Daniels plan?

That's why I have always liked using the McMillan calculator because it gives pace ranges. Usually the slower end of the range is great for the first half of a training season and the faster end of the range for when things start to click and you're really in shape.

The Floyd wrote:

But I do think people that get overly concerned with the specifics of day-to-day training, like there are magic workouts, when what really matters is getting it broadly right without overcooking yourself. You definitely seem to have that down. I just think that Daniels's books are loaded guns and most people take the schedules and tables too literally and overdo it. Keep up the good running!

I think that’s fair, but I also think it’s true of training generally. I’m not sure that this a more meaningful risk with a Daniels approach than if you were to train in a Canova (those special blocks?) or a Tinman (mixing in lots of different paces throughout a training cycle) style.

Us runners tend to be compulsive sorts who measure everything and then to keep adding on more until we are pushing right up on redlining or injury. There’s nothing that I see about Daniels that exacerbates that problem.

Honestly, I see his limits on training volumes on quality days, his emphasis on both objective and subjective measures of effort, his designed fallback weeks, and his propensity to balance your volume and your intensity in any given week as actually reducing the likelihood of shooting yourself in the foot.

Of course, that assumes people follow the principles laid out in the book and not just the plan at the back of the book.

Of course, that is also coming from a guy who ended up with surgery after 2 of his 4 marathons, sow hat do I know?

The VDOT tables are calculations based on studies Daniels has done, but they are predicated on certain assumptions and they are intended to be a guideline, not an absolute formula for a given outcome, despite the title of the book.

Among those assumptions is that you are equally well trained for each event. So if you use a 5k race to establish your current VDOT, that will tell you what you need to know about your current training paces (subject to the discussion below), but it won’t tell you what you’re capable of running a marathon in because you may not be equally well trained for that marathon as you are for the 5k that you used to establish your baseline. Further, you may simply be better suited for the 5k than the marathon as a result of the quirks of your particular physiology.

Also, you might be able to hit certain paces, but you might be exerting a higher level of effort than is appropriate to hit those paces. It’s not just being able to run 20 minutes at the appropriate T pace, but being able to do so while still being able to talk a bit, or to do so at roughly 90% of your max heart rate, or to be able to do so without having to employ the same breathing patterns you would in a 5k. It’s when you go beyond those levels of measured effort all to hit a time when you face danger of overtraining, burnout or injury. Especially when you force the pace in a workout on a hilly course, a windy or hot day, a day when you didn’t sleep well the night before, etc.

So training paces don’t tell us much at the end of the day.

Hundred mile weeks aren’t worth the effort if you’re only running 2:57.

Smoove wrote:

The Floyd wrote:

I just think that Daniels's books are loaded guns and most people take the schedules and tables too literally and overdo it.

I think that’s fair, but I also think it’s true of training generally. I’m not sure that this a more meaningful risk with a Daniels approach than if you were to train in a Canova (those special blocks?) or a Tinman (mixing in lots of different paces throughout a training cycle) style.

I disagree, at least as compared to a Tinman. (Canova is indeed known for demanding training, but I'm not aware that he has published schedules for average runners to try to follow.) Tinman prescribes much more moderate workouts than Daniels does. Much less I-work, slower tempo runs, etc, etc. The multi-pace stuff for Tinman is mainly just a moderate tempo or 1000s at 10k-ish pace followed by several short hill repeats at mile effort and/or 100s at 800 effort. The training is not crushing at all.

My point is that if you just blindly follow it, Daniels is far more demanding and I think overly demanding for most runners. Put it this way, there are regular threads on LRC in which people ask/complain about not being able to hit Daniels' "prescribed" paces and I can't remember anyone ever saying they couldn't hit Tinman's paces.

I hear what you are saying, but the pool of runners, particularly at the slower end of the spectrum, is much deeper at the Daniels end, so you’d expect that kind of thing to some degree.

Daniels R paced Reps saved my training. I stagnated before trying them, and it made me realize just how little “fast” running I had been doing. Ever since then I’ve realized I need a few weeks focused on R reps to help my economy during a cycle. It really was a breakthrough for me.

That said, I did all reps by feel, focusing only on form and effort, never looking at the watch until after the workout. You can work about paces later.

*worry about

Smoove I know you follow daniels plan from the 2nd edition but what are your thoughts on his "final 18 week" plans from the 3rd edition? Seems attractive because quality sessions are scheduled every 4-5 days and his workouts are more time based which I think tailors well to runners who want to run high mileage but who aren't as fast.

Running high miles isn't an issue for me but I think going into a threshold session after having doing 8 miles "easy" in 1h15 minutes isn't what daniels intends.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

So you can physiologically race 13.1 miles at 5:38 pace, but struggle in doing 3.55 miles at 5:38 (20 min threshold) in training? Seems like YOU are the one who needs to get his stuff together in workouts and stop crying and not Daniels.

One thing to consider is that Daniels paces are for when you feel fresh and fully recovered. If you can only run a 1:14 HM fully tapered, it means on a typical training day you are nowhere near 1:14 shape and should adjust your paces. Then the tempo would be slower, also temperature could be worse or soft surface slowing you down, but the EFFORT should still be 20 mins of what you could run for around 1 hour/HM during that day under these conditions.

the problem is that it's sometimes difficult to concentrate on the workout. One should prepare mentally in order not to let the mind wander. There are factors like heat and wind which can make it difficult to run at the target pace but in my opinion the biggest opponent is the mind. If I didn't concentrate well on the workout, I realize that some kilometers are way slower than what I am capable of running. So at least for me the key for a successful tempo run is mental preparation before the run and then doing the workout on track or somewhere where I know the route very well and know that I can push there hard enough.

go by effort wrote:

That's why I have always liked using the McMillan calculator because it gives pace ranges. Usually the slower end of the range is great for the first half of a training season and the faster end of the range for when things start to click and you're really in shape.

I thought that this was normal to run at slower pace when the season starts. In addition to that I don't even run tempo runs in the beginning of the season but tempo intervals.

Baltsu wrote:

the problem is that it's sometimes difficult to concentrate on the workout. One should prepare mentally in order not to let the mind wander. There are factors like heat and wind which can make it difficult to run at the target pace but in my opinion the biggest opponent is the mind. If I didn't concentrate well on the workout, I realize that some kilometers are way slower than what I am capable of running. So at least for me the key for a successful tempo run is mental preparation before the run and then doing the workout on track or somewhere where I know the route very well and know that I can push there hard enough.

Yes, but that's one of the two big reasons why Daniel's is prescribing the faster tempos - to work and build your mental strength. If you only do easy MP/Tinman/malmo Tempos all year round, you never experience what it feels like in a race when you need to push through fatigue. Daniel's threshold is exactly hard enough to make you want to quit in the last 3rd, whereas a MP/Tinman tempo could keep going for a long time.

The other reason is that he thinks it's physiologically the best pace to run tempos at, which me and many others disagree with. I don't think Daniel's tempos are an effective form of training year-round, I believe they do have a place but need to be done sparingly and not week after week from phase 2 all the way to phase 4 as Daniel's have them in his plan. Much better would be to do the slower tempos in base phase and transition phase and only do some faster Daniel's tempos as tune-up before races. Overall, Tinman training makes much more sense tho. And yea, stay away from Canova's system, it was designed for the best in the world/top-elites, NOT for the average male 15-20 min 5k runner.