Daniels plan-Running threshold and intervals too fast

I think that you don't understand "thresold pace".

You are supposed to be able to run this for at least 50 minutes if you were running to exhaustion, not crouching out of breath after just 10 minutes.

Garcimore wrote:

I think that you don't understand "thresold pace".

You are supposed to be able to run this for at least 50 minutes if you were running to exhaustion, not crouching out of breath after just 10 minutes.

yes, it is the pace that one can maintain for an hour, i.e. faster than the HM pace but not fast running as such. For me the challenge is never breathing but more lack of speed endurance in the beginning of the training blog.

First off, how did you set your VDOT?

I used the Tanda Race predictor based on my 8 weeks of Strava data at the start of the marathon plan which predicted me at a 2:57 marathon and used those for my numbers.

Prior to that I was running 100+ mile weeks for 8 weeks straight and didn't take a down week before starting the plan.

Maybe I was fatigued or something? Anyway, I used those and quickly found out that the paces I was actually running were +30 sec/mile for every marker (marathon, T, Interval)

Just do a 6 minute time trial ... see what you can do

Daniels tells you to use a race results or time trial to establish your VDOT, not some predictor based on your training.

Tinman would have you do a 2400m TT on the track to establish your VDOT, as that's right on your VO2MAX pace (yes it will hurt a lot but then you know your aerobic capacity). Alternatively, races of up to 5k (like a 3k or 5k) also work very well as they are still close enough to VO2MAX.

But these "pace calculators" have one common issue - they don't care about surface, elevation, temperature, pre-fatigue/tired legs, etc. Best would be to find out how threshold should feel, how 5k pace should feel etc and then run accordingly.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman would have you do a 2400m TT on the track to establish your VDOT, as that's right on your VO2MAX pace (yes it will hurt a lot but then you know your aerobic capacity). Alternatively, races of up to 5k (like a 3k or 5k) also work very well as they are still close enough to VO2MAX.

Cooper test!

To be honest the only indicator that I have is heart rate right now. I wear my HR monitor on almost all my runs and races and have never seen it go past 182 bpm in races (10k, half marathon, marathon) - but I've never done super hard anaerobic sprints

Running feels really easy

Yeah, you really shouldn't be totally smashed after T pace intervals. Not sure what distance you're training for, but some of the marathon workouts have you doing a few 3 mile intervals at T pace, and they should feel fast but controlled. Like I would feel tired and very ready to stop for the last mile of the interval, but it is more like a HM effort

Also, you were doing 100+ mile weeks but your predictor was a 2:57 marathon? Were you focusing on an ultra or something? Or was that supposed to be base building? Sounds like you probably are fatigued

The "saddest" part is that I use Daniels' conversion of every T mile = 5 minutes. My actual T pace is probably around 6:45-6:50 but my ego/curiosity (to see if I've improved) makes me start at 6:30-6:35

Yes I was base building. It predicted me at 2:57 because I was running all that mileage at an average pace of just under 8:30 min/mile. I ran 15's in singles every day of the week.

There's no chance I could hold 6:48 pace or whatever the equivalent is in a marathon though

I have always thought that Daniels' paces and workouts were way too hard. I recently ran a 1:14 HM as a masters runner (which makes me solid but not amazing), but running at around 5:40 "threshold" pace for 20-ish minutes in a workout would crush me. In fact, I'm almost positive that Malmo has said the same: specifically that 20 minutes / 4 miles at HM pace, which for an elite runner like he was was close to his 1-hour pace, was an incredibly hard workout.

My advice is just to slow things down by at least 15-20 seconds per mile. For many, the idea that there is some meaningful physiological benefit to running at 1-hour race pace has been debunked. Finish feeling like you're working but could keep going if you had to, and don't turn it into an all-out time trial!

I'm not sure who's the OP any more, but for the OP the advice is simple - do a maximum-effort race or time trial of somewhere between 2500-4000 metres and use Daniels' calculator to work out the VDOT. Then use the associated training paces.

The Floyd wrote:

I have always thought that Daniels' paces and workouts were way too hard. I recently ran a 1:14 HM as a masters runner (which makes me solid but not amazing), but running at around 5:40 "threshold" pace for 20-ish minutes in a workout would crush me. In fact, I'm almost positive that Malmo has said the same: specifically that 20 minutes / 4 miles at HM pace, which for an elite runner like he was was close to his 1-hour pace, was an incredibly hard workout.

So you can physiologically race 13.1 miles at 5:38 pace, but struggle in doing 3.55 miles at 5:38 (20 min threshold) in training? Seems like YOU are the one who needs to get his stuff together in workouts and stop crying and not Daniels.

One thing to consider is that Daniels paces are for when you feel fresh and fully recovered. If you can only run a 1:14 HM fully tapered, it means on a typical training day you are nowhere near 1:14 shape and should adjust your paces. Then the tempo would be slower, also temperature could be worse or soft surface slowing you down, but the EFFORT should still be 20 mins of what you could run for around 1 hour/HM during that day under these conditions.

Phil, I thought you were the Tinman "expert" who never actually worked with Tinman? Tinman doesn't have his runners do 20 minute runs at threshold pace. I'm surprised you're attacking me here. You're now a Daniels guy?? Yes, it would be hard. Not impossible, but very hard. Harder than I think is appropriate. I'll stick with Tinman and Malmo on this. Malmo can be occasionally cranky on here, which is understandable given all the stuff on this board for all the years he has been active on here, but I think his training ideas are outstanding. And the guy was a 61 minute half marathon runner back when that was REALLY good, for whatever that's worth. As Malmo has said, these 20-25 minute "tempo" runs at half marathon pace are way too hard. And if you can do that with any regularity, flip it around: your HM PR sucks and you're not running the race hard enough. Go search the threads.

Can you link to the posts where malmo considers the 20-25 min tempos at current HM-effort too hard or inefficient training for someone focusing on shorter distances?

Tinman does not consider shorter, faster tempos to be useless. He thinks they are valuable, especially of you train for shorter distances like a 3k or 5k. He just thinks that CV is even better - as CV also has some benefits for VO2MAX and more race-specific stride mechanics (higher cadence, knee lift, and stride length). Drew Hunter often did some threshold tempos in HS as warm-up for higher intensity intervals (mile to 5k paced intervals).

If you train for a HM, yes I think they are not very effective. The longer, slower tempos would be much better.

Keep in mind - Daniels definition of threshold is: "Generally in the range of 83-88% of VO2max or 88-92% of HRmax. Threshold pace is comfortably hard running for either a steady 3-4 miles (or 5 to 6km) or repeated runs of 5 to 15 minutes each, with 1 to 3 minutes of rest between the runs."

That HR range is not easy, but managable for a short tempo. The reason people often consider threshold too hard is because HS kids race them, around their 10k pace which definitely is too fast. It's easy to feel good at the start and get rolling and really start suffering in the last third. But a properly conducted 20 mins Daniels tempo can be a great session imo!

Don't worry about the exact values the vdot tells you. Go by feel. To make it simple, just make T your half marathon-ish pace, I your 10K-ish pace and R your mile-ish pace. With threshold/tempo runs it's better to be a little on the slower end than to be a touch too fast. You don't have to follow the plan exactly. If it says to do a bunch of 400s, maybe go into it with the mindset that you'll be running at 5k pace, instead of worrying about running an exact time for every interval.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Tinman would have you do a 2400m TT on the track to establish your VDOT, as that's right on your VO2MAX pace (yes it will hurt a lot but then you know your aerobic capacity). Alternatively, races of up to 5k (like a 3k or 5k) also work very well as they are still close enough to VO2MAX.

But these "pace calculators" have one common issue - they don't care about surface, elevation, temperature, pre-fatigue/tired legs, etc. Best would be to find out how threshold should feel, how 5k pace should feel etc and then run accordingly.

I like the ~2k time trial as well b/c it doesn't blow you up and you can train through it. However, I've found the fatigue level you come into the day with , especially if you're in a cycle of ramping up your mileage, can give you a slower 2k time than makes sense.

So, I'd say do it but also take it with a grain of salt if it comes in slower than you expect and you have a reasonable explanation. From reading alot of Tinman, I think he would also point to your last sentence with emphasis - run the (insert target) pace you think you could that day based on how you feel that day, regardless of what a calculator tells you.

I didn't say that Tinman said tempo runs are useless, I said that he doesn't have his runners do them in the manner you're advocating. Not at threshold pace for 20+ minutes. Occasional tempo runs of that duration or longer sure, but those are MP pace or progressive. Like I said, I'll stick with Malmo on this one. Half marathon pace for 20-25 minutes is very, very hard, and too hard for a regular workout day. So, to your comment, threshold pace is not too hard because it's mistakenly being run at 10km pace, threshold pace is too hard because it's too hard even at the "proper" pace. Easy to find Malmo links on this. Just skimming, I think my favorite line from Malmo was: "20-30 minutes at HMP is a race, not a workout." I agree. I also like how he takes a (joking) shot at Pfitzinger for his slow half marathon PR. :-) https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1173824&page=1https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=19892

Phil,

I didn't say Tinman