If you were in charge of Footlocker Nationals, how would you compete with NXN?

I get that FL has history on their side, but they have to recognize that NXN has created serious competition to them and that many athletes are now not competing FL for one reason or another. Without having some sort of invite system they are diminishing their status. Just having the ability to add 5 guys and 5 girls could make a big difference.

In most years there maybe a few people who would be nice to see attend FL that were not able to because of the regional overlaps....but these last 3 years, not having people like Tuohy, Chmiel, Walters has got to be a big blow. Especially Tuohy...when one runner is so dominant, it certainly makes the FL 'national' champion tag carry less luster.

really surprised they didn't either recognize this/or address it in the last couple of years...

voidsixer wrote:

deuces wrote:

The only CA guys to win Footlocker since 1990 are AJ Acosta and one of the slowest winners ever, Chad Hall. I don't think Footlocker is missing out on too much if those CA guys don't want to run in the national championship.

Sure, but the guys from the west have a huge disadvantage with FLW one week before FLN. Everybody else gets more rest. All the FL regional races need to be held on the same day.

the guys in the west don't have a disadvantage, they just suck. only 1 california guy has won FL in the past 15 years. the rest were too afraid

aj acostas old running shoes wrote:

voidsixer wrote:

Sure, but the guys from the west have a huge disadvantage with FLW one week before FLN. Everybody else gets more rest. All the FL regional races need to be held on the same day.

the guys in the west don't have a disadvantage, they just suck. only 1 california guy has won FL in the past 15 years. the rest were too afraid

It's obviously a disadvantage to have a week less rest. You can debate whether or not that disadvantage would have led to different results but on its face that's a disadvantage.

fastTuohy wrote:

FL should invite those in the top 10 from NXN who were on teams - it might be a short list and perhaps noone would accept, but give the top kids who go with their teams the chance to run in SD for themselves.

That's a seriously bad idea, for what should be an obvious reason, that you're leaving out all the excellent / better runners who didn't happen to be on a team.

No - wrote:

fastTuohy wrote:

FL should invite those in the top 10 from NXN who were on teams - it might be a short list and perhaps noone would accept, but give the top kids who go with their teams the chance to run in SD for themselves.

That's a seriously bad idea, for what should be an obvious reason, that you're leaving out all the excellent / better runners who didn't happen to be on a team.

Individuals at NXN largely had a decision as to which race to run and made it (for those who could not try to qualify in both). You can argue that someone like Tuohy ran with her team at NXR and the team finished 3rd and did not make it to NXN. But many if not most individuals had a choice.

My intent was to provide an opportunity for the Nico Youngs and Claire Walters at FL as they did not have a choice about NXN, and certainly belong at FL if they desire.

fastTuohy wrote:

Individuals at NXN largely had a decision as to which race to run and made it (for those who could not try to qualify in both). many if not most individuals had a choice.

Right, they had a choice and made it. So what????

That doesn't give them any preferential treatment to run at Footlocker Nationals.

Your obvious bias toward Nike's team race is giving you an unwarranted sense of entitlement.

No - wrote:

fastTuohy wrote:

Individuals at NXN largely had a decision as to which race to run and made it (for those who could not try to qualify in both). many if not most individuals had a choice.

Right, they had a choice and made it. So what????

That doesn't give them any preferential treatment to run at Footlocker Nationals.

Your obvious bias toward Nike's team race is giving you an unwarranted sense of entitlement.

You apparently dont get it. They made a choice and chose nxn as an individual. And not fl. I am not for giving them a 2nd chance. My bias toward the team race is due to xc being a team sport. But if we want more top individuals at fl, find a way for those on top teams. You seem to want a way for more individualsuals to run both. Which indirectly supports nxn as well as fl.

Footlocker needs to fold. It would help the sport to have all the best individuals at NXN.

I’m not a fan of Nike as a company but the NCAA team type of national championship they hold is much more interesting.

Again, people choosing to run at a lessor team race should not and fortunately does not give them preferential treatment to run at the FL Nationals individual and team championships. If you're truly so interested in teams you should realize and acknowledge that FL Nationals has had team competitions ever since it's inception, and that are much more relevant then the preferential lessor teams at the Nx team meet.

Again you STILL don't get it. Most of the runners, maybe 90 percent (?), at the Nx preferential school team meet are NOT in the top 100 runners in the country. ALL of the runners who run at the FL Nationals are in the top 100 runners in the country.

By having their preferential team meet for lessor runners, and LEAVING OUT many runners who are better than those on the picked school teams, Nike is being quite insulting to the better runners who they snubbed and left at home, just because then didn't go to one of the preferential schools that "qualified." The Nike meet has an extremely biased selected process, because the teams are selected based on INDIVIDUAL SCHOOLS, rather than the best runners from different areas of the country.

The latter is what FL National does. Their teams consist of all the best runners, not from certain preferential entitled schools, most of which do not have the best runners, which is what is done at the Nike meet.

So the purpose of this thread is to supposedly find something FL could do to (better) compete with NXN. This implies it does not compete with NXN today, which apparently you disagree with,as you say NXN is has "lessor" runners.

Just for curiosity I looked at some data.

For the last three years the spread between 1 and 20 for the boys at FL has been 47, 40, and 36 seconds, with the spread between 21 and 40 being 90, 75 and 35 seconds (in the order of 2018, 2017, 2016).

At the "lessor" meet, the spreads have been 24, 30, 33 seconds for 1-20 and 18, 15, 15 for 21-40.

The FL field is clearly more diluted of top talent. It may have been once the other way, but no longer.

It does seem like FL needs more of the top runners to compete.

And apparently does not get all of the best runners, no matter how many times you say it.

Some of these guys who are further back at FL are there because they ran NXN the week before. The main reason for the spread is the course. Tight hilly courses tend to string fields out. The only way to really know is to examine the top 40 finishers from the past 4 years and examine their NCAA places. I believe someone has done a cursory review and determined that FL participants have done better.

NXN stinks wrote:

Some of these guys who are further back at FL are there because they ran NXN the week before. The main reason for the spread is the course. Tight hilly courses tend to string fields out. The only way to really know is to examine the top 40 finishers from the past 4 years and examine their NCAA places. I believe someone has done a cursory review and determined that FL participants have done better.

I think the NCAA performance data only applies to those from FL or NXN perhaps from 2015 and earlier. We don't really know yet for those since then.

As far as the effect of those who ran and NXN and then FL. For 2018 the results show:

Hocker - 2 at NXN, 1 at FL

Bosley - 23 at NXN, 5 at FL

Methner - 15 at NXN, 6 at FL

Stanley - 19 at NXN, 7 at FL

Cheeseman - 27 at NXN, 10 at FL

Reading - 17 at NXN, 19 at FL

Fischer - 55 at NXN, 25 at FL

Gomez - 65 at NXN, 34 at FL

Kern - 28 at NXN, 35 at FL.

There does not seem to be much of an effect. 6 of the 9 finished in top half of FL with 5 in top 10. Perhaps Kern ran worse at FL, all the rest did pretty good.

quote]xcfan2 wrote:

Simple change:

Only 8 auto qualifiers from each region with two from each region by invitation.

This would enable all the top runners to participate and strengthen the field.

The small field of 40 should be kept because being just the elites is part of the brand and history that sets it apart. The invitations should at least partially restore some of the top runners who were taken away by NXN. Most of the top runners in the Midwest choose to run both races so that should be true for the other regions as well if they are given the chance.[/quote]

As an example of this method the invitations could have been

East: Katelyn Touhy, Claire Walters

West: Sydney Thorvaldson, Carlie Dorostkar

South: Brynn Brown, Sasha Neglia

Midwest: 9th and 10th place

All the named above except Walters were NXR winners.

I expect at least half of them would have accepted.

How many runners can the course handle? Certainly more than 40. Maybe 100? Why not just invite whoever they want to be there that didn’t qualify?

runn wrote:

Footlocker had the chance to be NXN- they declined.

It's too late, Nike was smart enough to add the team element and more regions.

What if some people don't care who the best team is. I certainly did not care in HS(class of 2012) and I really couldn't care less now

westsouthrunner wrote:

runn wrote:

Footlocker had the chance to be NXN- they declined.

It's too late, Nike was smart enough to add the team element and more regions.

What if some people don't care who the best team is. I certainly did not care in HS(class of 2012) and I really couldn't care less now

You make my point. FL could invite the top runners who are on teams at NXN. But only the very top. This would add to the FL race. Which is the point of this thread.

footlocker has a smaller field so it would be easier to perform "better" at FL and the weather is pretty much ALWAYS better in San diego and that accomodates most runners much more fairly than mud pits. So every year there will still be a ton of post season questions

Look at Footlocker South.

Judson Greer (a great junior/runner), won the race.

When we ALL know that Ryan Schoppe is the best male TX runner (having beaten everyone) multiple times, including Greer, by decent margins of victory.

What meet did Schoppe decide to run at?

NXN, not Footlocker. And he's not competing with a team, there. He ended up having the only subpar race of his season there, but still did decently.

At the high school level, team competitions aren't equitable across divisions, regions, and type of school. We've discussed this again and again. Even at the college level there are three divisions. NXN dilutes talented athletes and benefits students at larger schools with good coaching.

Footlocker has the best runners in the country. NXN has some mix of fastest teams and fast runners.