Are the top high school XC programs in Colorado recruiting?

Just because you and others keep saying it doesn’t make it true. You don’t have facts on your side, so what you are saying is rumor and innuendo.

I’d argue that falsely accusing others of cheating is cheating.

Just remember where there is smoke there is fire. I am not associated with the Colorado cross country scene. But it sounds like there probably is some illegal recruiting going on. It happens in a lot of states in a lot of sports. If these coaches that are falsely accused have facts to disprove these false accusations I hope they do. But I doubt it. I have seen this happen quite frequently as it is not that difficult to do.

Reading this rant, I can tell this hits close to home for you. But you throw around a lot of dirt.

You've heard a lot of things! You've heard things more than once. Therefore those things are true. So you'll keep saying that Niwot, or Valor (or whoever else is the next target) cheats. Say it enough times, get others to say it, and it becomes true to other people.

You should share some of the CHSAA bylaws that Niwot is violating. You've brought up specific situations, so point out the specific language that's being violated.

As a coach myself, I wish I had the time one would need to consistently meet with parents to coordinate recruiting plans. Here's your logic stream of consciousness:

I've heard something from parents it's possible coaches weren't behind it but they are 'cause I said they are it's not a coincidence Niwot coaches are telling them to do it it's wrong.

These nefarious Niwot parents have so much free time on their hands (because they're all basically wealthy stay-at-home types, right?) that they go to middle school cross country meets to volunteer and...what...recruit? What Longmont middle school meet was this? Do you know who the parents were? Did they maybe have kids racing in the meet?

And then you take a huge leap and say that this (completely bizarre & unfounded) volunteering-at-meets tactic wasn't just at one middle school meet in Longmont, but "spread throughout the district" in a conspiracy?! I'm in a nearby district and haven't heard of such a thing here or anywhere. But again, while you've clearly talked yourself into all of this, repeating it (Niwot cheats, Niwot cheats, Niwot cheats) doesn't make it any more true.

Nobody is denying that a number of Niwot coaches coach for REAL Training. That's normal, acceptable, and not in any way against CHSAA rules. So, yes, there are lines between Niwot and REAL Training. Again, don't make out this fact as something wrong. High school coaches throughout the Front Range coach for REAL Training. I've been on their website. They're clearly not trying to hide anything. REAL Training has high school coaches up and down the Front Range coaching for the club. Again, this is not a secret, worse-kept or otherwise.

And why is where the REAL JV meet held a problem? Again, it doesn't appear there was any effort to be deceitful and there isn't anything wrong with it. You were even invited! Should they have held the REAL (RIEL?) JV State meet at Silver Creek HS instead? Was that an option?

You can say "undue influence" all you want, but please share with the class exactly how REAL Training's influential middle school director violates CHSAA's rules. Not "a crapload of circumstantial evidence" or "blurred lines." What specifically is going on and how is that a violation (according to CHSAA). You can start with how asking a kid where they're going to high school violates CHSAA's rules.

And on that note, it strikes me:

How do you know where this "talented 8th grade runner" is going to high school? Haven't you said high school coaches discussing that with middle school kids and their parents is cheating?

I've been at meets where you coaches joke about Niwot, discuss "what we're going to do" to stop Niwot, etc. In any of your plotting, did you or your co-conspirators ever mention working harder? Well, you're starting your media-attention campaign on this message board. If you can't beat 'em, tear 'em down.

And after all that ranting, you wrap it up with "At the very least Niwot should be moved up to 5A for competitive reasons." Lame. Also, that's not how it works. Get busy on the CHSAA bylaw homework. You have time now that you're in the off-season, right?

Hello All- That's Winatallcosts, RunningRunner, Justacoach, Buzzer beet ear , Bea-v-is D or anyone else...

Serious question, since when I asked Chasssaaa, he effectively ran out of the room holding his hands over his ears yelling, "LA LA LA LA LA!!!"

Would you, or the others discussing this, in light of the shared concerns/ criticisms or the CHSSA recruiting rules be open to changing rules at all? Is there a way to protect your concerns while still allowing for some athletes to transfer without penalty?

My opinion is the rules punish athletes that are in no way connected to recruiting. I'd propose abolishing those rules.

Also, the riles seem totally unenforceable. The running community is fairly small and we know each other, know the parents because we ran with them in high school or college, volunteered with them at a local road race etc.. Of course you talk to people!

Is there a compromise path forward? Is there a state that has a better system? From what I see, Colorado's system is flawed. Just curious if any compromise or change is even possible? Or are people stuck with "Rules are rules!"

I would, of course, be open to rules changes that benefit high school runners.

CHSAA has been going the other direction, however. They've made the transfer rules more stringent in the last couple of years. Most sports federations and school districts will say things like "it's all about the athletes" and proceed with actions/decisions/policies that prove the opposite.

Out of fairness, I don't follow other HS sports so I don't have a good handle on the ball sports, etc.

CHSAA's transfer rules punish athletes. I'd support anything that eliminates or lessens that punishment. I don't know how CHSAA's hardship exemptions play out—I'm not familiar with any.

You definitely bring up a great point—it is a small world. I'm not sure how to keep people from communicating with each other.

A two-part suggestion:

Right now, there is no one involved with making decisions re: punishment and the transfer process that is on the side of the athlete. The family can state their case, but isn't involved with the decision. The receiving school has no say (which makes sense). The outgoing school has a say. And CHSAA has all the power. I suggest we change that.

One, establish athlete advocates not connected to CHSAA that athletes and families can seek out when they're having problems with their coach, program, AD, school, etc. It's easy to say "kids need to advocate for themselves" or "I'm going to bet the communication between parent/coach and parent/AD never happened in any meaningful way." But talking to the coach or talking to the AD doesn't fix problems if the coach or AD doesn't think there's a problem or is disinterested in fixing a problem. And CHSAA definitely doesn't want to hear from parents dealing with problems at their student-athlete's school. These athlete advocates would be the next step for athletes and parents.

Two, establish an athlete board not connected to CHSAA that has as much voice/weight as anyone else in the process. This board would be made up of high school athletes that would hear each case.

CHSAA has too much power in this scenario. Some CHSAA higher-ups may want what's best for kids, but as a collective group, they show us repeatedly that's not the case. The full-time paid commissioners/assistant commissioners regularly make choices that are in conflict with what's good for athletes.

This is just brainstorming, making suggestions, and throwing out ideas without having the whole hypothetical system worked out.

Is there a way to protect your concerns while still allowing for some athletes to transfer without penalty?

Since you want to get snarky, calling you a half-wit would be giving you double the credit that you deserve. There are hardship waivers. If you can prove to CHSAA that you have suffered some form of abuse, bullying, etc., you can apply for a hardship waiver and you do not have to forfeit any eligibility. I agree with this if it can be proven. It's one of the things that interests me, because some athletes that transfer claim that because they have a coach who doesn't allow certain things to happen in practice, they have a hardship because the coach "isn't meeting their emotional needs." I have heard from a source at CHSAA that the only hardship waivers they allow is for kids suffering from abuse in the household by a parent, or excessive bullying by someone on the team or in school if it can be proven. As far as rules changes, I am fine with the rules. They were put in place as an initial reaction to a Valor coach (who has since gotten pushed out), who was asking kids in his club to transfer to his school (not Valor at the time). I personally think you oversimplify my position as "rules are rules" when in reality I think that if CHSAA puts rules into place, they should take the time to enforce them. I get that we disagree on this. I think I get your point. I "walked out of the room" because I feel like we are going around in circles at this point. That's it. Thanks.

If they think Valor, Niwot, etc. have such an edge because of their respective youth track clubs, the solution is simple: they need to start their own track club. Convincing parents of middle school (and younger, a lot of kids start running for these clubs when they are as young as 6) to shell out money, come to practices and travel to meets is not an easy endeavor. Ultimately parents are going to do what they feel is in the best interest of their kids. They can talk about influence and all that other nonsense, but in the end, creating some of these programs takes more time and effort than they are probably not willing to put into coaching. They are just envious that these "talented young runners" are going to other schools, but the reality is "talent" is overstated. Most of the time, these are runners they helped develop that are going to schools they coach at. Niwot has REAL, Valor has Valor Track Club, etc. There are 71 USATF track clubs in Colorado. Why not one more?

Just saw this thread so I thought I would put in my two cents here.

Colorado has open enrollment so it gives athletes a significant ability to pick what school they attend. The result is often that strong athletic teams routinely pick up athletes from outside there attendance area. Niwot is in the St. Vrain valley school district that contains many high schools. When I worked in the district it was common to see athletes pick their high school based on the quality of the teams there. Longmont consistently pulled football players from other high schools in the district because of this. Longmont also had the strongest track program in the district at that time. Niwot benefits from hosting the districts International Baccalaureate(IB) program, meaning most of the smartest students in the district attend Niwot even though they don't live in the attendance area. They choose Niwot for academics, frequently these students contribute to cross country and track programs(smart kids are often XC runners). Once Coach Mo arrived at Niwot he raised that team to a new level. He did this through excellent coaching and by recruiting athletes from within the high school. He brought in the best assistants and created opportunities for athletes to train and compete. He has always run the Real Training club team, but the club continued to grow and succeed. Niwot athletes participate in Real Training, as well as athletes from literally all over Colorado. Parents in Colorado are very motivated to help their children succeed, and they have the means to do it. The more success Niwot saw, they more people were drawn to the district. Its common sense. If you have ever known Coach Mo, you would know that he isn't a cheater. In every program he has run he emphasizes character development and a team first mentality. Put him at any high school in America and within two years that high school will have a great track program. He doesn't need to recruit, it would be stupid for him to ever tell a parent or athlete that they should come to Niwot. Its much easier to just coach kids to be great, and let parents figure things out for themselves. I've never met a better track coach than Coach Mo hands down. If I still lived in Colorado, I would send my kid to real training and I would probably move to south longmont so that they lived in Niwot attendance area. Niwot is a great school with a great program, but its worth noting that the athletes who built that program like Elise Cranny and Nick Harris lived in Niwot basically with eyesight of the school. It a super rich area with tons of people who love running and fitness in general. The amount of talent that would come in every year in the freshmen class was ridiculous. I'm sure to outsiders it looks like recruiting, but there is no reason for any coach at Niwot to break the rules to get kids, the kids will end up there regardless.

Overall I think these super teams are bad for the sport and have the long term effect of reducing the overall number of kids that participate. I've coached a couple of other team sports in addition to track and I've known some good coaches that have walked away due to the (clear) imbalance of power that exists in high school sports in Colorado. Not everyone coaches for the right reasons but even the ones that do get tired of loosing year after year. That only hurts the kids and parents that are left behind in these schools that are following the rules. In cross country that means overall fewer kids taking up running and enjoying the sport, which should take precedence over a handful of kids benefitting from being able to transfer at will.

Honestly this year round training thing is exactly what is ruining high school sports and is what has made it impossible to get kids from other sports to participate in track anymore. Half these parents that are shopping around for elite running programs for their 8th graders are going to be surprised when their kid wants nothing to do with running by 11th grade. These coaches that want to turn a high school team into some kind of elite training program need to move on to coaching at the college level or find some sub-elites that they can obsess about 365 days a year, and let these kids be kids.

Welcome back! I knew you'd be lurking. :) In summary:

1. I'm less than a quarter wit. (thanks for the extra credit)

2. You like the rules mostly

3. Except the hardship waivers are probably too easy and that system should be tightened up

No compromise or changes needed in your opinion.

Change bad.

Rules Good.

I like the idea of a student input aspect because it teaches kids to be part of the solution. Let their voices be heard. Of course as they are still students, some adult guidance and assistance would be needed. A parent / student council or appeals board of sorts? Some involved people without the bias of an AD, coach or CHSSA employee.

The hardship waiver stuff also sets up coaches for false accusations. If a transfer is denied for more mundane basic requests, I could throw a really vile accusation to be heard! That's not an ethical thing to do but that's what the system rewards.

Thanks for the input. Your point about not needing to recruit resonates with me. I can't remember who this quote is from originally, but "You become the average of the five people you hang around with the most." Success breeds more success and attracts more successful people. Training with faster runners makes you faster.

Maybe some of the coaches who are mad about these successful teams should offer to meet the coaches for coffee and ask about their program? Ask what they do differently? Are there things they can learn from each other?

Good points. And certainly, some adult supervision/guidance/advocation for the advocates would be crucial. Right now, CHSAA and the outgoing school hold all the cards.

And the hardship waiver is certainly prone to abuse. But maybe the athlete advocates and athlete review board can help in that area as well.

In some ways, I think you made my case for me. If a kid wants the year-round training, then select a program that offers that. If that athlete is wanting to run Cross Country to get in shape for another sport, pick a program that isn't an all-year deal. Chose a program that fits the athlete. Don't penalize them if they try an intense program and want to transfer to a less intense team. Or the other way around applies too.

As a high school kid (many years ago) I ran road races with my dad but my real love was soccer. I ran XC, just killing time until soccer started. Then, I started winning races and realized I was barely average at soccer. I switched to a year-round running program after my sophomore year in high school and it was the best thing I ever did. Kids need to try various things and approaches to find their groove. The harsh transfer (sit out a year) rules and recruiting accusations do not help the athletes. It only helps, or in some cases hurts, track coaches and certain programs. If you are really in it for the kids, let them try various teams and approaches and who cares about the balance or imbalance of power for the programs.

Elise Cranny wasn't coached by him. Was Nick Harris? Just wondering. A coach at Niwot got caught sending REAL and Niwot stuff to a kid enrolled at Silver Creek. C'mon man. Mo brought him on and has kept him. I imagine Mo is a great person, and that kids love him. Doesn't mean they don't break rules to win.

Chasssaaa wrote:

Elise Cranny wasn't coached by him. Was Nick Harris? Just wondering. A coach at Niwot got caught sending REAL and Niwot stuff to a kid enrolled at Silver Creek. C'mon man. Mo brought him on and has kept him. I imagine Mo is a great person, and that kids love him. Doesn't mean they don't break rules to win.

"That's it! I think I'm done here."

LOL.

I think many people here don't understand the structure of CHSAA or the overall politics behind these rules. CHSAA is made up of all of it's member schools, the majority of which are 1A-3A schools in rural towns. Even in 4A and 5A there are some geographically isolated schools that simply will never be able to take advantage of transfers, even if they created excellent programs. These schools want a level playing field or as close to it as they can get, and they resent being beaten by front range super teams that can recruit from huge population centers. And it's not just the coaches driving this but the parents and students at these rural schools, in many cases high school sports is all these communities have. Just look at 4A cross this year, what hope does a school like Durango (geographically isolated in the mountains) have against these Niwot teams when Niwot can pull kids from the greater Boulder/Longmont area, whether they were recruited or not? The transfer rules are the only tool CHSAA has to try to create some kind of fairness in all of this, it's not like there are undercover CHSAA agents posing as middle school parents. A high school coach would have to be pretty dumb to get caught recruiting in this state.

People also forget that the CHSAA Bylaws were largely created for football, CHSAA's focus is something like 80% football, 10% basketball and 10% everything else. You simply cannot mess with some of these smaller communities chances at a state football title, they will fight to the death for it.

Re: Elise Cranny and Nick Harris—it's easy to look up the dates and confirm who was coaching when. Just like it's easy to look up the coaching staff and see that Christensen is the XC coach and Mo is the track coach.

I've been around when this story gets trotted out as well (you folks do like to talk about Niwot when you get together!). At least you have some of the truth of this story, though it's not what you'd like it to be.

Kids enroll in multiple schools. Kids enroll and change their minds. No CHSAA rules were broken. Nobody was put on probation. Nobody was punished by CHSAA. The kid went to Silver Creek. Good kid! Silver Creek got "their kid" but hasn't done much to develop the kid. That kid ran for REAL. That kid's siblings have run for REAL since the time when nobody was punished and nobody was put on probation.

Other kids have left Silver Creek and Riel complains about that, too. Calls it recruiting. She needs to look inward and find out why kids don't like her. One kid left in the middle of the track season it was so bad. That kid had qualified for State but passed it up, along with varsity eligibility for a year—all to get away from Coach Riel. That kid was originally enrolled at Niwot, btw. Kids and families change their minds. Another case where Silver Creek got "their kid" and didn't do the work to develop them.

The coaches at Niwot are people. From my experience, they are people doing great things. Judge away about whether they're great or bad. I'd prefer you don't make things up and repeat them until people believe them to be true, but you're going to keep on doing that.

Choice is King: You can't deal with facts, hence your sarcasm. You're a wimp. And easy to beat in any argument. You have no facts. Or principles. That is why you struggle with guys like me.

Cranny was coached by Jason Hartmann. Have a nice day. I don't know her, but likely Coach Riel is also principled and has high expectations. That poor, abused child! I'm sure they tried to get a hardship exemption lol. Merely by mentioning SC, you start to see what Niwot is up to. You can't handle facts. The second you realize that the people you like might be up to below-average behavior, you will start to see that it isn't JUST good coaching. it is also them bypassing rules that helps their program. If the coach is willing to do it. Some take what they get, work with their own athletes year-round, and make them the best they can be. Some do that, and also treat it like the Wild West, as Choice is King wants. He wants the rules "abolished." By the way, I am not at all a fan of CHSAA. All organizations have rules, that aren't in the interest of every individual athlete. They exist in the spirit of fair play. No different than salary caps or anything else.