Mary Cain hot take

Love it that Goucher told the Areson girl that she was glad she was under Magness. ?

Youngest-ever national record holder and high school star athlete are pretty far removed. Cain was literally the most promising female runner in all of America, so to argue that she "didn't have the talent" as you attempted to do was obviously a sign of remarkably stupidity. Therefore I called you an idiot.

If you don't trust your coach. you quit.

And if the coach doesn't trust the athlete. he gets rid of the athlete.

Alberto should have canned Cain, or maybe he did?

asdfge wrote:

Didn’t she claim that Salazar wanted her to take a prohibited diuretic? You can argue that coaches need to tell their professional athletes to regulate weight (e.g., Zion Williamson in pre-season), but you can’t argue that it is acceptable for them to encourage the athletes to do so by taking banned substances.

She also claimed that she told Salazar and other NOP people that she was cutting herself, and no one did anything about it. That's a sign she was developing a significant psychiatric disorder. They should have gotten her psychiatric help, told her parents, something.

If these are true, I don’t think either can be justified under the “professional athlete exception”.

THIS.

I don't understand why almost everyone focuses on "weight targets" and "body shaming". Suggesting banned substances and ignoring mental health issues is on a completely different level, but barely anyone comments about that.

I want someone to interview Treniere Moser and Jordan Hasay. Both join NOP in 2013.

We never really saw the huge leap in performance from Mosier as we've seen with other Salazar runners so would like to hear her take on the focus on weight.

Exactly, the focus needs to be on the doping allegations not the body shaming.

What prohibited diuretics was she asked to take?

Did she visit Dr Brown? What were list of drugs prescribed to her by Dr Brown?

If she can provide the prescriptions, that to me is the Smoking Gun.

Body Shaming is not a smoking gun.

I'm a Browns fan and agree with this.

Al Sal is Freddie Kitchens, and he ruined Cain like Kitchens is ruining Mayfield.

She ran the indoor mile in 5:05--but 5:05 doesn't seem that fast at all for the mile.

HS, College, semi-pro, hobby jogger, jogger, or elite... all have one thing in common... there is not one specific method that works for everyone. Meaning one size does not fit all.

Each athlete, no matter the level, is different and it falls upon the coach to figure it out. Since it's impossible to do multiple case studies with Cain (because the clock can't be turned back to get a redo), all that we can glean from her experience with NOP was that this was not the way to get the best out of her. That is all.

jecht wrote:

She ran the indoor mile in 5:05--but 5:05 doesn't seem that fast at all for the mile.

On May 17, 2013 at the Oxy Distance Classic, Cain ran the 1500 metres in 4:04.62, shattering her own high school record from the previous year and breaking Suzy Favor's American junior record (who was almost two years older when she set the record in 1987).

at age 17.

If she did 10 x 400 on Tuesday and a 20 minute tempo on Thursday and a long run on Sunday she probably would have improved.

Instead....this.

I'll just leave this here... wrote:

HS, College, semi-pro, hobby jogger, jogger, or elite... all have one thing in common... there is not one specific method that works for everyone. Meaning one size does not fit all.

Each athlete, no matter the level, is different and it falls upon the coach to figure it out. Since it's impossible to do multiple case studies with Cain (because the clock can't be turned back to get a redo), all that we can glean from her experience with NOP was that this was not the way to get the best out of her. That is all.

+1.

I'll just leave this here... wrote:

HS, College, semi-pro, hobby jogger, jogger, or elite... all have one thing in common... there is not one specific method that works for everyone. Meaning one size does not fit all.

Each athlete, no matter the level, is different and it falls upon the coach to figure it out. Since it's impossible to do multiple case studies with Cain (because the clock can't be turned back to get a redo), all that we can glean from her experience with NOP was that this was not the way to get the best out of her. That is all.

Yeah, imagine that. Public weigh (shame) ins, starvation diets, and ignoring glaring red flags (aka self cutting) isn't the way to get the best out of an athlete. Well, at least we have that solved.

agip wrote:

I'll just leave this here... wrote:

HS, College, semi-pro, hobby jogger, jogger, or elite... all have one thing in common... there is not one specific method that works for everyone. Meaning one size does not fit all.

Each athlete, no matter the level, is different and it falls upon the coach to figure it out. Since it's impossible to do multiple case studies with Cain (because the clock can't be turned back to get a redo), all that we can glean from her experience with NOP was that this was not the way to get the best out of her. That is all.

+1.

Hey, just a heads up in case you want to check out what i believe is an excellent post on another messageboard about how Mary Cain (and her family) made some very bad choices regarding the move to NOP, and it is worth checking out, post by "Nimmals".

link:

All ya very stable geniuses have figured it all out: he has a theory and tried it out on everyone. It worked in 1/20 cases so all 20 should know what they signed up for and duck y'all.

But you're missing the point here. It was the culture and the endless commenting that was the most hurtful. Since you all grew up in perfect homes and ran 3:30 for the mile to 1:58 for the marathon have 2 x 11/10 spouses I'll clue you in: abusive people suck.

Just like the way all the commentators here keep on saying "she knew what she was getting into" you suck. Keep repeating the hurtful dogma. Congrats morans.

Telling someone constantly they're overweight, if you just tried a little harder, y'know to lose the weight, etc. you'd be better is the issue. Cain sought approval from her coach just like you'd all seek from your bosses, parents, spouses, children - oh except you don't.

For five minutes think how sh!tty it'd be if a key person in your life and career was an abusive prick picking on you all the time.

seattle prattle wrote:

agip wrote:

+1.

Hey, just a heads up in case you want to check out what i believe is an excellent post on another messageboard about how Mary Cain (and her family) made some very bad choices regarding the move to NOP, and it is worth checking out, post by "Nimmals".

link:

https://www.runningahead.com/forums/post/97dc8960730a4095aa99c231064c23ed#focus

that's a solid post.

I'd add one thing that I remember from the time - i'd have to find the source before I'd want to be quoted or even taken seriously, but I believe Cain's parents met with salazar at the decision time and he assured them he'd do mary right. He said he'd not burn her out, and cited their common Catholic belief system as proof of his good intentions. I think the cain parents trusted salazar to be a parent in their place, and he let them down.

Is that on the parents? Ultimately yes but heck..you have a 17 year old well adjusted daughter and she has the chance to be a star...it's really really hard to tell her no. You want the kid to fly and you want to cut some apron strings.

But sure they should have monitored more and made sure all was ok when things went downhill for MC.

Mary Cain no doubt made mistakes. The premiere mistake she made was not quitting the team the second Alberto showed himself to be a cruel a$$hole with terrible ethics.

I don't understand what is here to debate?

Have you all lost your compass about what is the point here? tl;dr it's not the weight!

Alberto was her coach. Her body as athlete was his responsibility. And mind doesn't detach from it - it comes in pair, a two-component "thing". Sound mind in sound body.

Coach is not only here to write programs, count laps and measure time. Athlete is a person, not a machine. He is there to listen to athlete, tailor his approach to her possibilities to meet her aspirations.

That said, coach must provide psychological guidance and be mindful about that aspect of his athlete. If he is not capable of doing that, he needs to find solution by either learning or by introducing somebody who will be able to advocate, broker that missing aspect between them.

Alberto didn't do any of that. He is responsible for Mary Cains' "decay", mentally and physically. Purposely I say decay because I hope it's not too late for her return.

What did Mary Cain say? I was bullied. That reaches outside any kind of definition in coach-athlete relationship because it digs into something really basic to human beings - normal human interaction. Same as like saying hello.

When you knock somebody on the street, people get hurt, it leaves a mark and you have to deal with some consequences. Bullying means Mary got hit, badly. And she got hurt, very badly. And everybody who saw it they don't deny it, they confirm it and they don't approve it. She signed up to be a better athlete, not for a fight club.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that would justify or diminish what happened here.

Be more flexible? Are you stupid or what? Yelling at someone in front of dozen people, telling the things he said and put her on measuring scale, and you say he should have been flexible? Let's take an engineering approach then and see how we can make it sound if Alberto was more flexible:

1. Not screaming at her in front of dozen people, telling the things he said and put her on measuring scale

2. Not screaming at her in front of dozen people, telling the things he said

3. Not screaming at her in front of dozen people

4. Not screaming at her

5. ?

As you can see, there is no "more flexible way". There is no "more flexible way" when somebody is bullied. There is no "more flexible way" when hitting somebody. Because it's the wrong way and has always been the wrong way.

I apologize for harsh tone, but this is just paralyzing.

agip wrote:

she ran 4:04 in HS.

She never came close to that running with NOP training.

In fact she ran terribly, season after season.

She *was* doing high level sports, before NOP. NOP destroyed her. No idea why you are saying destroying a young athlete is 'high level sports.'

'high level sports' should actually you know make people better athletes, not make people worse athletes.

As someone said - all Salazar had to do with Cain was basic HS training plus a little...and she would have responded. Instead he ran her into the ground. Total fail. He should have adopted his training to make her faster, not slower.

Biology ruined her, NOP only made it worse. It is nearly impossible for top HS females to improve in college.

Of the top HS female milers - Cain, Efraimson, Murphy, Aragon, and Cranny, none of them improved in the years after HS. Of that list only Cranny has managed to PR again, at age 23, which is the best case scenario for that type of athlete.

If Cain had taken a more conservative route to training I could see her running 4:05-4:10 for a few years and then hoping to improve post college but that's the best case scenario.

Professional coaches need to know their athletes. I am not sure how a coach could work closely with someone and not know what is working and not working. Know your athletes, listen to your athletes. This doesn't mean you do everything your athlete wants, you are still the coach and be in charge, but you should know what buttons to push as a professional coach.