Fast twitch slow twitch discussions are nonsense

Every sport has different abilities. Albert Pujols is not going to play CF, Ali was not going to lift weights and punch like Foreman and a guy that can drive 400 yards is not going to develop a short game to be competitive on the PGA tour.

One time, I finished a track workout at the same time as our 49 400 guy and we ran a 2-3 mile cool down together. He was absolutely dying at 7:00 pace. There was no way he could have ever broken 20:00 for 5K.

The OP is spot on. Speed and endurance performance is multifactoral, not just a product of muscle fiber types, and an elite distance runner is always going to be much faster than the average average.

Good post but no way can these sprinters run 15 mins for 5km however they train. A sprinter does not need a naturally strong heart a long distances runner does. Maybe one in a hundred sprinters could be any good at long distances. Apart from their fast speed they are just regular people physiologically and wouldn't do any better than an average person. Plus their propensity to put on muscle works against them.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Good post but no way can these sprinters run 15 mins for 5km however they train. A sprinter does not need a naturally strong heart a long distances runner does. Maybe one in a hundred sprinters could be any good at long distances. Apart from their fast speed they are just regular people physiologically and wouldn't do any better than an average person. Plus their propensity to put on muscle works against them.

Internationally elite sprinters have been shown to have the same absolute VO2max as their distance counterparts. The difference is those sprinters generally have a BMI about 20% greater so their VO2max as a function of strength/weight is lower. Point being they are not regular people physiologically at all.

If humanity's existence relied upon Bolt breaking 15 for 5K when he was in his early 20s I bet he could have done it. Muscle fiber type can and does change based upon the stimulus it gets.

Do you have a link to a study indicating sprinters have comparable VO2 maxes and what do you mean by "absolute".

Jeff Galloway was something like 98% slow twitch.

slow twitch is still a pretty fast twitch wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

You know there's literally DECADES of muscle biopsy research on elite athletes? Maybe you should read them.

There are many attributes which make a runner fast or slow or have exceptional endurance or not. A hypothetical runner with 100% slow twitch obviously would not make an elite distance runner because they would be moving too slow. A hypothetical runner with 100% fast twitch would obviously not make a good sprinter beyond 5 meters! Lol. There is a difference in muscle biopsy between elite distance runners and elite sprinters, although not as big of a difference as most would think. Also there are some trainable components and some not, which is why for the most part sprinters are born not made.

Alan

Jeff Galloway was something like 98% slow twitch.

I thought he had 110% which allowed him to give 110% effort when he raced.

Mesandron wrote:

It is true that some runners have better finishes and highest speed but it itsn't that simple. Your reasoning about fast twitch would mean that if a better finisher was able to hang until the last 200 he could just unleash his fast finish regardless of the speed of the race, and it is not true.

El Guerrouj was faster than Kipchoge but lost in a fast race to him in 2003 and won in 2004 in the 5000 in a slow race. Lagat was faster than Bekele and lost a slow 5000 race in Berlin. How can you reconciliate that and explain that pace can ruin the fast twich advantage? If we followed your argument, a FT runner who is not dropped out of the race would win each time.

That's EXACTLY why it matters. Runners have a certain muscle fiber distribution, and especially for athletes who are all talented, respond highly to training, got great VO2MAX values, etc. it is important to know whether someone is heavily on the fast-twitch OR slow-twitch side FOR AN EVENT (most people will have a mix).

El Guerrouj obviously has WAY more FT fibers than Kipchoge in his legs. Both are extremely talented runners, VO2MAX in the 80's, great tendon elasticity, efficient stride, fantastic mechanics, calves that can withstand high pounding, responders to training, etc. - but fiber % is one of the main difference between them and why they excelled at different events. Kipchoge might only have 20% FT, and El Guerrouj 50% FT. This means that Kipchoge would NEVER beat El Guerrouj in 1500 or below, if both are trained and at their peaks. Likewise, El Guerrouj wouldn't be able to beat Kipchoge in a half, or marathon. 5k and 10k races between them would be very interesting, they bring different strengths to the table.

2013 in Paris, the pace was very fast as you said, El Guerrouj had nothing left at the end cos he needed to use his strong anaerobic system just to keep up with the pace. Then 2004, in the Olympic 5000 the pace was very slow, and El Guerrouj could easily outkick both Kipchoge and Bekele for the win and Olympic gold double. Had Kipchoge and Bekele known that El Guerrouj has more FT% fibers than them, they would have kept the pace faster and prevent him from being fresh at the last 100m. But Bekele thought he is unbeatable, underestimated El Guerrouj and had to pay the price for it.

Had Ingebrigtsen ran a 3:32 or faster and not 3:40+ in the European Indoor 1500m 2019, he would have been able to beat Lewandowski. No way Lewandowski can kick like that at the end if he needs to run a PR just to stay on pace. He has been beaten many times by runners who take his devastating kick out of him. Cheruiyot knew about Lewandowski's fiber setup and his strong kick, and didn't play any games in Doha - strong pace from start to finish, and no matter how fast Lewandowski is he never had a chance to win Gold there. Had they jogged around like in the 2016 Rio Olympic final, Lewandowski would have likely won gold.

I agree , but only at 50% It's not that simple and I provided a counter argument to the El Guerrouj situation. Bekele was able to outsprint Lagat in a very slow Berlin race 13:17 race when Lagat record on the 1500 is much better than what Bekele has done.

If the anaerobic system is hurt by pace, then there are way more explanations than just Fast twich. To my point of view the fast twich are relevant mainly to pure sprint ability and pure 200-400m ability, without any racing before, but lose a lot of importance in a distance race compared to strides efficiency , VO2Max and max pace sustained.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

jans knows wrote:

Internationally elite sprinters have been shown to have the same absolute VO2max as their distance counterparts. The difference is those sprinters generally have a BMI about 20% greater so their VO2max as a function of strength/weight is lower. Point being they are not regular people physiologically at all.

If humanity's existence relied upon Bolt breaking 15 for 5K when he was in his early 20s I bet he could have done it. Muscle fiber type can and does change based upon the stimulus it gets.

Do you have a link to a study indicating sprinters have comparable VO2 maxes and what do you mean by "absolute".

I have too much homework today to dig through his ebook, but it's in Jan Olbrecht's Science of Winning.

By "absolute" VO2max I mean the actual total value rather than the value being expressed as a function of someone's weight.

Does not world class sprinters have like 70+% of type IIx muscle fibers which have close to none mitochondrial content or capacity to improve it (differently from type IIa)? Wouldnt it make impossible for those athletes to running any faster times over longer diatances?

Just to add two cents. Yes, muscle fiber composition might show that athlete should be better at longer distances than short or vice versa. However, that is only for those who are clearly at one or another side of FT/ST spectrum. For most of us this does not mean anything as our mix allows us similarly successful at either distances.

Speed is much more than muscle fiber composition. Its very much about neuromuscular coordination. Does any of you remember of any kid in your childhood who was very good at any sports, ran fast, threw strong, shot well? The key for that was not his fiber composition but rather ability to control his body, have fast reaction, etc. I think there quite a few 6'8 guys with same muscle fiber composition as LeBron James, however, I could be money that there probably arent any with the same coordination and fast firing motor units as he has.

We have this opinion that speed is born wih and endurance is something trainable. In reality, both are similarly trainable. Its also through that with age speed declines so that window is much narrower than with endurance. Amateur level sports also do not help with it. Can you imagine any mid 20s guy training for 5-8 years to cut his 28 sec 200m to 24 point? There are no 200m turkey trots, no 400m park runs, no 100m marathons. Office colleagues will be more impressed by 4:30 marathon than 23 sec 200m. There are plenty, however, guys who improve their marathon time by 14% in five years going from 3:10 to 2:43.

@laterunnerphil, check

https://www.aaporto.com/index.php/downloads/category/18-doc-tecnicos-2012-2013?download=1188%3A20121020-acao-de-reciclagem-de-meio-fundo-lisboa&fbclid=IwAR2UuYXKpq9hESEfTD213iRL4p5kXzM7s-eWykoSWyi9UvHgULe5vVc1SSU

, Lewandowski is training rather similar to Ingerbgtsens, differently than stated in your post. Also, if you read interview about him with his brother/coach Tomasz in spikes.org, you will learn that Marcin went to dance lessons specifically to work on coordination

https://www.google.com/amp/s/spikes.iaaf.org/post/amp/lewandowski-a-tale-of-two-brothers

. This guy understands it very well. Twitch or no twitch, you wont run fast without being able to control your body well. I would love to see an all fast twitch seven footer run fast 200 or 100. Not gonna happen.

jans knows wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Do you have a link to a study indicating sprinters have comparable VO2 maxes and what do you mean by "absolute".

I have too much homework today to dig through his ebook, but it's in Jan Olbrecht's Science of Winning.

By "absolute" VO2max I mean the actual total value rather than the value being expressed as a function of someone's weight.

If a 200 pound person can absorb more oxygen than someone weighing 140, what does that tell us?

SDSU Aztec wrote:

If a 200 pound person can absorb more oxygen than someone weighing 140, what does that tell us?

Could you be a little less vague?

jans knows wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

If a 200 pound person can absorb more oxygen than someone weighing 140, what does that tell us?

Could you be a little less vague?

Your saying that a bigger, sprinter-type athlete has a comparable absolute VO2 max. Having more muscle will increase the amount of oxygen absorbed so I don't understand the relevance of absolute measurements.

Knowing what part of the muscle fiber spectrum is important to you and if you're coaching runners. Why?

- amount of mileage will differ

- pace of easy runs will differ

- emphasis on certain workouts will differ

- how much of a certain stimulus that runner can do Will differ

- prime example is how 400/800 runners should train vs 800/1500 runners

- if you're a coach and you ignore this, you are doing a disservice to your runners.

OldFish. wrote:

Twitch or no twitch, you wont run fast without being able to control your body well. I would love to see an all fast twitch seven footer run fast 200 or 100. Not gonna happen.

Um, Bolt is way taller than an average sprinter.

Wilt Chamberlain was tall and coordinated and fast too.

LRP loves to use that one indoor race and the comparison between Lewandowski and Ingebrigtsen as an example of fast twitch versus slow twitch but it is flat out wrong. Why did Lewandowski lose a slow European outdoor 1500 final just the summer before that indoor race? It was also slow. The two athletes actually train very similarly. Cool, you found a YouTube video of Lewandowski doing fast reps. You can find videos of the Ingebrigtsens doing fast reps too. But the reality is that they both train similarly with high mileage and threshold work. By your logic Jakob shouldn’t have lost to Lewandowski in Doha but he did.

BTC Hater wrote:

LRP loves to use that one indoor race and the comparison between Lewandowski and Ingebrigtsen as an example of fast twitch versus slow twitch but it is flat out wrong. Why did Lewandowski lose a slow European outdoor 1500 final just the summer before that indoor race? It was also slow. The two athletes actually train very similarly. Cool, you found a YouTube video of Lewandowski doing fast reps. You can find videos of the Ingebrigtsens doing fast reps too. But the reality is that they both train similarly with high mileage and threshold work. By your logic Jakob shouldn’t have lost to Lewandowski in Doha but he did.

You talk about the EU outdoor championship 1500 in Berlin 2018? Yes, Lewandowski finished 0.04s behind Ingebrigtsen. Have you seen the race? Here are the last 120m:

Lewandowski was in last place with 400m to go, Ingebrigtsen in first. Lewandowski was in 12th place with 120m to go, Ingebrigtsen in first. Lewandowski passed 10 runners on the final 120m, and 6 alone on the last 25m, and had the race been 2m longer he would have won.

Lewandowski was asked about exactly this race. It was one of his very first 1500 races, when he moved up from the 800. He said he made a big mistake (by going in the final lap in 11th position instead of like 5th, closer to Ingebrigtsen) and should have won it. Listen to his thoughts here:

After this race, he smoked Ingebrigtsen in the EU indoor 2019, exactly like he predicted. He also said multiple times in interviews it's up to Jakob to find a way to beat him since he got superior speed.

For training, his workouts like 3x500 ~65s down to 62s are absolutely not doable by Ingebrigtsen. On the other hand, he couldn't keep up with Ingebrigtsen in a 5k or 10k. But even IF their training was exactly the same, you would just again undermine the point - in the 1500, Ingebrigtsen is ST, and Lewandowski FT, and that's why Lewandowski can outsprint him in slow 1500m races, destroy him in 800m and below, and Ingebrigtsen would do the same in 5k and above.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

jans knows wrote:

Could you be a little less vague?

Your saying that a bigger, sprinter-type athlete has a comparable absolute VO2 max. Having more muscle will increase the amount of oxygen absorbed so I don't understand the relevance of absolute measurements.

Ok I see what you’re saying, thanks.

Given sprinters BMI are about 20% higher than distance runners but the absolute VO2max is the same you could also say sprinters will generally have a vo2max about 20% lower than distance runners. This is relevant because we are talking about Bolt training for a 5K.

Undoubtedly the percentage of VO2max he can hold for 5K is less than an elite 5000 runner. The amount of power he could put out for that amount of time would likely be around 25-30% lower than an elite 5000 runner. That means he would be about 15-20% slower. If we say elite is 13:00 and he’s 15% slower that’s right at 14:57 as a probable upper limit.

My guess is he would run under 16:00 but the odds of him breaking 15:00 without rocket fuel are close to zero.