June Eastwood Update

RunRagged wrote:

Eastwood came in first, beating out Frissell, in the Montana Invitational earlier this this month. The U of Montana website (gogriz.com) says this was Eastwood's third official race in the women's division.

https://www.montanasports.com/sports/big-sky-conference/montana-grizzlies/montana-griz-eastwood-take-home-first

Did you actually look at the results of that race? It was basically a Montana practice session - the only competition was a bunch of NAIA schools. I’m sure Frissell and Eastwood got in a good tempo workout in that one (they finished within a tenth of a second). Montana went 1-5 for a perfect 15. Your point exactly?

[the results of that race? It was basically a Montana practice session - the only competition was a bunch of NAIA schools. I’m sure Frissell and Eastwood got in a good tempo workout in that one (they finished within a tenth of a second). Montana went 1-5 for a perfect 15. Your point exactly?[/quote]

What is your point, the rest of the team let June cross the line first to get the win? Did they do the same this weekend?

Interesting that Jonathon Eastwood finished 48th in the same invitational in 2017, then went on to set PRs the next indoor and outdoor seasons. After 1.5 years off from competitive running can come out and finish 2nd with about the same level of competition.

Still, there's no advantage to being born male though, right?

Concerned Philosophim wrote:

What is your point, the rest of the team let June cross the line first to get the win? Did they do the same this weekend?

Interesting that Jonathon Eastwood finished 48th in the same invitational in 2017, then went on to set PRs the next indoor and outdoor seasons. After 1.5 years off from competitive running can come out and finish 2nd with about the same level of competition.

Still, there's no advantage to being born male though, right?

Eastwood is also a 5th year senior who trained with the team for an entire year without having the strain of competition. Any athlete who got to take a year off and just train would likely show signs of improvement. I think Eastwood’s performances throughout the championship season will settle this debate. I doubt Eastwood is so naive as to deny the fact of her male biology (trans women are male by definition) - the argument for her participation hinges on the fact that she has taken steps to bring her hormone profile into alignment with those she competes against. She will get wrecked by those who are more talented than her in the championship season - Camila Noe for example who beat her and Frissell by nearly 20 seconds in a matchup earlier and ended up placing top 20 at the pre-Nats meet this weekend. Eastwood doesn’t hold a match the depth of talent in the Big Sky conference and mountain region (who have 4 of the top 6 nationally ranked teams mind you). Y’all are a bunch of dumb- s**ts who can’t take a step back and rationalize the whole picture.

Males should not be competing against females.

If only none of us had to race. We’d all run so much faster!

Coward and a cheat. Trans-identified males are insane narcissists. "She" gets pleasure from illegitimately outclassing natal women. It's an extension of her creepy fetish.

Woman are adult human females, full stop. XX only. An XY human is a male, regardless of their fetishes or ideologies.

Is that even a tempo run for a guy who ran sub 15?

His name is Jonathan.

"She" and "June" only exist in fairy tales.

rememberthisfolks wrote:

His name is Jonathan.

"She" and "June" only exist in fairy tales.

He loves the attention!

YMMV wrote:

Like Semenya, only avoiding first place.

A sham, a joke on everyone.

Somewhat related, but very much not the same situation. Eastwood was born male, Semenya was born intersex. The latter is in much murkier waters.

I’m guessing you and I aren’t too different minded -I think Eastwood’s inclusion needs to come with some sharper guidelines and restrictions. I really wish this argument wouldn’t have to devolve into cultural relativism, we should all be beyond that. I believe that reason isn’t beyond anyone on this site, but so far the discussion seems to contradict that optimism.

I'll take a step back, but I don't need to rationalize anything. What do you mean Eastwood would not deny male biology? So we acknowledge an unfair advantage from male biology but it's OK because June is not beating everyone? You named 1 woman who beat June when June was not running as fast as June is now. Jonathon's places in the conference were 63rd-24th-30th. Can you name 29 more female runners that have more "talent" than June as there were 29 men with more talent when he ran as Jonathon?

So with your rationalization I guess you are not in support of Cece Tefler, a transgender hurdler who won DII Nationals? Cece has clearly made a huge jump in "talent level" to have been ranked around the 100-200th best hurdler as Craig to a national champion. And Cece didn't even have to take a year off from competition to make those improvements like June did. I'll assume the Connecticut sprinters don't get your backing either since there aren't any high school girls who can beat their male-born competition. Is it still OK to just acknowledge their male biology but let them race who they want.

June may not win in the championship season but there will be a woman, born as a female, who would've been Montana's 7th runner, who will not get to compete because she does not have "male biology". Too bad for her, but at least June acknowledges it.

Eastwood is denying male biology by competing in a womens division. Eastwood is scoring points and taking places from biological women. If Eastwood had integrity this would not be an issue. End of story.

thatfemalerunner wrote:

youtube.com/watch?v=v4JpvX0M6nY

Does anyone else actually find June to be pretty cute?

Hopefully he moves to the marathon and brakes the women’s world record that would be hilarious!

Somebody shoukd file a Title IX complaint. He is taking a scholarship from a woman. Transgenders can complain also that they would have to take drugs in order to compete as a woman and they may be unwilling to take drugs.

These threads always get quagmired in vitriol slung towards the transgender athlete in question. You folks are nuts if you think someone willingly transforms their body and exposes themselves to ridicule from folks like you because they are "narcissistic" or that somehow this is about doing better in sport for them. Try a little empathy for once.

The real question that should be discussed is - does hormone therapy negate the advantage enjoyed by men over women? Does this differ between event distances?

Prior to transitioning, June had a personal best of 24:16 for 8km. Using the Mercier calculator, which is generally pretty reasonable for comparing across sexes, this is equivalent to around 20:55 for a women's 6km. 20:55 --> 20:18 is a fairly reasonable progression for a college athlete over two years.

Two years ago, prior to transitioning, Eastwood came 41st at this same meet, around a minute off the win over 8km. The runner directly in front of Eastwood in 2017, Zack Litoff, competed as an unattached junior (I'm assuming redshirt) in the open race this year and finishing 4th in a time that would have placed him 3rd overall in the invitational.

So, there are few possible theories:

1. Eastwood's improvement is due entirely to her male sex characteristics (possible)

2. Eastwood's improvement is in keeping with a progression one could expect over two years of training in college (also possible - Zack Litoff had almost the exact same progression)

3. Some combination of the two

There is obviously a lack of robust evidence telling us exactly how much a year of hormonal therapy equalizes the playing field. There are a number of case examples and more will come up as time goes on. You can't exactly do an RCT with this, so I imagine the answer involves looking at the pooled progression post-transition of transgender athletes competing in the NCAA and comparing it to the mean progression of athletes who didn't transition. If there are massive disparities, then I would agree different rules should be in place.

In the meantime, lets stop vilifying a college kid who already has enough negativity on her plate.