Did Bambi win? (These digressions are neccessary sometimes.)
Not by a longshot, which is sort of what made it a classic.
Did Bambi win? (These digressions are neccessary sometimes.)
I don't think Bambi even know what was happening... Yes, I know that movie (if you can call that) and have seen it. Skuj...you kid! Too young to know all those "classics" like us old folks.
"DRE" Either your typing is deteriorating or it's been too long since we've talked or written. And I'd bet that one of us will be getting an e-mail from Nobby real soon asking what a Little Brown Jug is.
Oh! And with visualizations of that in my head, I may not sleep tonight.
Okay, you got me. What the heck is it? Is it about the Gophers?
Skuj: Don't visualize too much!
Hahahaha! These digessionary posts are good. We'll get back on track real soon. What's really killing me though is....
OK, seriously though: You are an 800m specialist. You believe that SOMETHING, ANYTHING at 800m pace, ie 1x200m, 8x50m after a long run, is important EVERY TIME YOU RUN!!!
a) Is this delusional thinking?
b) Would Arthur say "hogwash"?
You might be ok with the 50s, but for Arthur aerobic work was aerobic work and pacework was pacework. And "Bambi vs. godzilla" was a real short movie.
The Little Brown Jug is a trophy that goes annually to the winner of the Minnesota-Michigan football game. Minnesota won it today for the first time in maybe six or seven hundred years (1986, actually.)
The sad thing is; Spider is not the first one to have called me that! I wonder where people get that connection...??? Digression is good. Arthur loved jokes...
I ain't 800m specialist but I can tell you this; yes, it is very important to work on the actual 800m race speed. But the question is how and when you do it. First of all, speed comes back very quickly once you start working on it. So why spend all the time honing it? You CAN do something like strides or whatever during the conditioning. More than ever, today we have luxury of doing many different things. In those olden days, Arthur's Boys didn't have much time to do much else. Whatever time was available during the aerobic phase, they spent for piling up mileage because that's what governs the performance level in 5 months time.
For repetition, it's not that relevant how fast you do those repeats as long as you do them fast enough (to creat buffer against this type of fatigue). Snell did 20X400 in 60 sec. That's not fast enought for 3:54 mile that he ran, or 1:44. But at the same time, Ron Clarke said he was doing 10X400 in 55 sec. but (at that time) he never broke 4-minute (but I'm sure he looked better than Chatterway in that ESPN movie!). So how do you add it up? It's because it doesn't matter. You're doing those repeats to stimulate your anerobic metabolism. If you have Lydiard's "Running with Lydiard", go back and read it again. There's a section that talks about how he trained Richard Tayler for 74 Commonwealth Games. That is, and Dick Brown would second, the most beautiful lesson as far as anerobic training is concerned. He also gives us another story by one Texas high school coach.
Now, comes coordination period, one of the things you need to learn is proper pacing. As jtupper agreed, it is very diffecult to hold yourself back in the first lap to run at even pace. You need to calculate how fast you can run, or you would like to run, or you think the race would be won; then run exactly at that speed, without watch (you need someone to read it for you at the end of the run); take plenty of rest like 10 or 15 minutes and repeat it like 3 or 4 times till your body learns how fast you should run. That's a pace-judgment work and it can be very important.
If you feel you need to work exactly like your race day after day, the best training program would be to race every day. In reality, you only need to put all the necessary elements developed during the program, again, in a systematic way; so on the actual race, you can put it all together. You don't need to prove to yourself day after day that you can run that speed or that far.
If you want permission to do something like the 50s everyday as an 800 runner, Ernst van Aaken will give it to you. I recall an interview where he mentioned that an 800 runner he coached, Maria van Strickling, made big improvements by doing a daily 12 km run with 6-8x50 at the end of each run done "fast, but not all out."
HRE -- Yes, of course, I meant "HRE", my typing is deteriorating (along with my cerebral cortex at this age).
Nobby -- So, I'm not the first to call you Nobzilla? Hmmm. Must be something in your forceful personality. Also, I think you mentioned several pages ago an affection for Godzilla movies.
And the Little Brown Jug: HRE has it correct; the Jug is the prize in the Minnesota-Michigan football game, which years ago was a bit more competitive when Minnesota was a national power.
P.S. (responding to the Nobzilla's reference): I always liked that story about the Texas HS coach and his team of milers (in, I think, the earlier Lydiard book). The gyst was: they used to run intervals and ran well for the mile, the guy tried the Lydiard approach and their ability to run repeat quarters worsened but their times for the actual mile improved (akin to Snell doing 20x400 in only 60, then winning the Olympics). That story always hit home because as a schoolboy I ran track in an interval-intensive approach, then always gacked about 800m into the mile. My coach used to yell at me to do a 65 as I morphed into roadkill during the third lap: "you did a dozen of those in practice . . . " he'd say. Well, you get the idea.
Of course, one of the advantages of being a talentless mediocre runner is I don't have to worry about the missed opportunity: Lydiard and Bowerman, working together in shifts and making me shoes by hand, with an East German pharmacology lab backing them up, couldn't have gotten me a sub-4:00. So now I'm a slightly wiser, better trained, middle aged guy.
P.P.S. Nobby -- any comment on you and Snell doing a tour and/or updating the fivecircles site?
The great thread continues. Thanks, Dudenesses.
Nobzilla, (hahahahahahahahaha), er, it's not a matter of "proving" 800m ability daily. More a matter of training and stimulation.
Why should anyone ever do 20x400m? Why not "interval your intervals"? :)
8x50 or 6x100 or 4x200 or 3x300m at the end of "conditioning running" can be done just about every day, at 800 pace, harmlessly, without destruct or staleness or bad ph levels, therapeutically, refreshingly, exhileratingly....in fact, perhaps the complete opposite effect of "Big Huge Classic Workouts In The Sky". (God I hate 10x400m with 1min recovery. That's almost as "convenient" as 100mpw.) :)
There is a school of thought on this, and I have to say, it FEELS right for me. I want to run 2:05 sometime....4x200 in 31 OFTEN, after 10k easy, is much more attractive to me than 20x400 seldom, not at 800 pace.
I understand your points above regarding race pace and stimulation, but surely there are physiological advantages to goal pace sessions? Horwill / 5 pace, etc?
I rambled again, dammit! :) I know this thread is Daniels or Lydiard, so does this philosophy have any place in their systems?
Point taken. I guess I shouldn't have "categorized" any type of "speed training" as "proving your speed". Now what would Lydiard have said? Knowing him, he would probably still have said, "Why do you need to do speed training? If you have that energy, run more miles (during the conditioning)!" What he means is that your performance level is governed by your aerobic development, not your anaerobic development. The best way to develop your aerobic capacity to maximum is to run a lot. Interestingly, he also said that you shoudl "work on your speed every week of the year." Perhaps not every day, or even every other day; but at least once a week.
Bill Baillie told me that he would do some 200m strides every Friday even during the conditioning (Kim S can clarify this). He was known as an "ironman"; to come down to 800m and then move up to 10 mile road race, etc. He always had one eye on "track" and, in 1984, he told me that he would like to be the first 50-year-old to break 2-minute for 800m. Now Barry Magee told me that, if you want to be a good marathon runner, it's not 200m strides on Friday that would make you a good distance runner; it's much better to go out and do steady state 10-miler.
So here it is, take it as you wish according to what you want to do. It wouldn't hurt you as long as you keep it under certain speed (Quax talk) and duration; but for optimum result, Lydiard would tell you to get out and run more (during the conditioning phase).
For the record, I like your idea of 200m repeats. I don't understand why more young runners and coaches of young runners don't use 200s. Like you said, 400 is convenient and hurt more, but I think the price is high too.
You're the best Aaken expert I know of (perhaps except for Dr. Ullyot). How often would his runners do those "tempo" intervals? I thought he said somewhere something like 20:1 ratio.
So it was like Salazar-Mary Slaney type of situation...? Did I say that?
Nobby,Correct on Bill.
And yes I was part of the group trying to get him under 2:00 mins over 800 for a 50 year old. Can't remember for sure but I think he ran a 1:59.
Here is part of the work we did in 1983 trying to get that sub 2:00 !!!!
Wed : 24 Aug : am 15 min jog
pm 66 mins Steady Cross Country, Cornwall Park with
Bill, good run on hilly course.
Thurs : 25 Aug : am 15 min Jog
pm 1hour 20 mins with Bill : Golf Course & Griffen
Park : including 12 X 200m > 33.5 Average
Frid : 26 Aug : am 15 min jog
pm 35 min easy run on streets of Mt Albert with
Bernie Walker (2: 20 marathoner)
Sat : 27 Aug : pm Mt Smart with Bill : 1200m Time trial : 3:33 ..... Bill wanted a mile but he called it off at 1200. We both found it difficult but I guess a good run considering Thursdays workout.
Good long warmdown.
Tues : 30 Aug : am 15 min jog
pm 40 mins Cross Country, Cornwall Park with Bill
Wed : 31 Aug : am 15 min Jog
Mid day : Mt Smart with Bill. Good warmup
200m > 27
600m > 1:40 ( Thru 400m in 63 NOT a
good run, felt awful)Good warmdown
Late pm : 20 min jog : Caught by Bill >>>>> Teased
Thurs : 1 Sept : am 15 min jog
pm 40 mins Cross Country, Cornwall Park with Bill
Fri : 2 Sept : am 15 min Jog
pm 1 hour 25 mins with Bill, Golf Course & Griffen Park
: including 10 X 100m > 14sec average
Felt really good
Sat : 3 Sept : National road relay : Just ran warmups with the athletes..
Sun : 4 Sept : am : Mt Smart with Bill . good warmup
1200m Time trial : 3 :31 : Good run ! Far better than last week !!!!
pm : 25 min easy jog
Mon : 5 Sept : am 15 min jog
pm 65 mins Cross Country, Cornwall Park with Bill .
Tues : 6 Sept : pm 36 mins at the Domain but twisted ankle badly !
Wed : 7 Sept : pm : Mt Smart with Bill. good Warmup.
200m > 26.5
600m > 1:37 ( felt hard, but ankle good)
Thurs : 8 Sept : pm 1 hour 10 with Bill, Golf course and Griffen Park including 10 X 100 m > 14 sec average. Felt Great!!
Sat : 9 Sept : Club run : Koromiko Road (1 hr): hard work on the hills and very windy into the bargin !
Sun : 10 Sept : 66 mins Cross Country, Cornwall Park with Bill , very humid.
Both of us found it hard, Flagged run ( should have
been 90 mins)
Mon : 11 Sept : pm 1 hour 10 mins with Bill including 1 mile of 50 yard dashes. Felt quite good !!
Interestingly Bill told me that when he ran his sub 4 mile in 1964 he said he never broke 30 secs over 200 in rep work in training that year because he was trying for the longer didtances.
Previously he had always tried to run quickly in those sessions and never broke 4 mins !!!
That's Bill's signature story and I whole-heartedly believe it. Quaxie told me the same story; he improved 1500m time by a couple of seconds when he moved up to 5000m and increased the distance work and slowed his rep times (or lowered the intensity).
I think this is where "effort by feel" comes in. 1/4 effort, 1/2 effort...60%, 80%, whatever. Pariticularly athletes are highly competitive. They always try to squeeze time out of themself. I was just talking to one of our colleagues and he said, following the Lydiard type schedule, his runners improved a 2-mile time trial by average of almost 40 seconds in 6 weeks. I told him to change the course next time they do the 2-mile time trial. I'll bet they are excited and, if you put them on the same course again, they'll try to top it. They know the course too well and they'll try to run to that tree or that courner "3 seconds faster than the last time!" That's human nature and this is where "discipline" comes in most. You change the course and now they don't know what they are doing. Just tell them to go out "80% effort" or whatever. If all the homework have been done and if they have all the ingredients, the time will come down naturally, not by conscious effort.
That schedule of yours and Bill's has made the rounds. My big regret on the NZ trip was that I didn't get to meet him. I actually printed the schedule up and showed it to Barry Magee wondering what he'd make of it. He went into his computer room and read it and I could hear all of this chuckling. He gave it abck to me and said, "Obviously it worked very well for Bill. But he was training for the shorter distances."
van Aaken was a firm believer in limiting anaerobic work, but he recognized the need for doing race paced and faster work, just not to the point where it became stressful. One of his approaches to "speedwork" was to assign very small amounts of it on a nearly daily basis, so Stricking would likely have done those 50s almost every day. Eight of them at the end of a 12km run would not exceed that 20:1 ratio of endurance to speed work. Another feature of his work was long recoveries, sometimes with walking, between intervals.
Sorry to go off-topic (so many to choose from in this thread), and yes this is partially a ploy to get this thread back on page one, but I was curious if anyone knows what Lydiard's thoughts were about eating before runs (especially long runs). I've read all the nutritional advice in "Running to the Top", but aside from him mentioning 3 meals a day (plus an evening snack to avoid weight-loss if neccessary), I can't find where he makes a case for eating or fasting before a long run. I'm in the habit of taking in about 500 calories or so (english muffin w/pb&j, coffee and juice) right before my morning runs (5-5:30a.m.), but I've heard coaches like Vigil say that fasting before and during long runs teaches the body to use glycogen more sparingly and tap into fat more efficiently as fuel. An article on mcmillanrunning.com under "long run" describes the theory and its supposed benefits.
I'm trying to follow Lydiard's program (down to the shoe lacing, thanks Nobby), and I'd like to know if I'm shooting myself in the foot for eating a bit before my long run and having a gel (or two on occasion) for a 22-24 miler.
Thanks all, fans of this thread are still all ears, so keep it going!
He said "don't eat fish" because he didn't like fish! For marathon racing, he suggested to eat whatever you feel most comfortable with. Barry Magee (have you heard this story, HRE?) swears by baked beans because he had that the night before he won bronze medal in the Olympic marathon. Psychological? So what? Whatever turns you on...
Energy intake before long run workout is an interesting one. I would like to get jtupper's opinion on that. I (used to) like doing the long run first thing in the morning because (1) it forced me to start slowly, (2) and a good way for weight management (Dr. Cooper said the best way to lose weight, if that's your goal, is to workout first thing in the morning because subcutaenous fat is pretty much the only energy source). Then in NZ, Ray Puckett used to have a toast (with Vegimite) with a cup of tea or something like that before the long runs. I'd say Lydiard would have said that it's better to be able to do a long run strongly with extra energy than barely staggering with empty stomach. If the latter is teaching your body to use fat metablism more efficienty and you can run fairly strongly anyways, all the power to it; as long as you can handle it well, why not?
By the way, you're doing a great job with your blog! Why don't you post the address here so others can see it. A word of caution, though; the time WILL come down but don't force it to come down. Change the long run route once in a while so you won't know how fast you're running. Once you start doing hill training, one of two things will most likely happen; (1) you're doing long runs even faster, or (2) you feel tired and barely able to get out and do other workouts. If (1), just be careful not to overdo it. That feeling might give you you're invincible. As you know, that's where "devils lie". If (2), don't get discouraged; your body is trying to adjust so don't push it too much; "your time will come..."
Though I don't remember him saying "specifically" about eating, I know that he had the runners we worked with have coffee and "bread" with jam before our morning runs. I thin he believed that having your stomache "settled" was worth it, even if conceptually you might be training your body how to deal with less available glucose. He figured we were running on depleted muscles and would soon enough run out the available glucose.