I have NO idea where you're coming from. Are you saying us Lydiardites (or whatever you want to call us) lack ambition when in fact we always look into fulfilling potnetial of the athlete in 5, 6, 7-year long term principles while most American runners and coaches look at quick fix and high school regional and state meet at best? And we go out and tell people to run 100 miles a week and we get criticized it's too much??? If you think you can go out and run 12X400 in 60 seconds with 60 seconds jog recovery and train to break 27 minutes for 10k, go ahead and do it. No one will stop you. We just don't believe that's the way to go about.
wellnow wrote:
I'm glad Nic Bideau doesn't think that way.
Dont let them discover the xbox!
Kim Stevenson wrote:
Good stuff Wet Coast. I am having a discussion with some parents right now along similar line about basic fitness. NZ is going the same way as the US !!. Playstation rules in many houses !!!
I think you shy away from prescrbing the tough sessions that are necessary for a young athlete to reach their potential. I doubt if you even believe like I do that a lot of young Americans can break 27.
Nobby wrote:wellnow wrote:I have NO idea where you're coming from. Are you saying us Lydiardites (or whatever you want to call us) lack ambition when in fact we always look into fulfilling potnetial of the athlete in 5, 6, 7-year long term principles while most American runners and coaches look at quick fix and high school regional and state meet at best? And we go out and tell people to run 100 miles a week and we get criticized it's too much??? If you think you can go out and run 12X400 in 60 seconds with 60 seconds jog recovery and train to break 27 minutes for 10k, go ahead and do it. No one will stop you. We just don't believe that's the way to go about.
I'm glad Nic Bideau doesn't think that way.
You do realize, however, that Nic Beideau is Lydiardite and doing Lydiard type program all along and he's the advisory board for Lydiard Foundation?
And for the record, becuase sometimes it seems some peolpe get upset or "hurt" with this tone of mine, I'm not "blowing up"; I'm simply stating my opinion as I'm sure others would.
Wet Coast wrote:
Wellnow,
Have you read any of the Lydiard books or information that is widely available?
You must be missing some information. The Lydiard type of training is based on basic physiological fact.
When you get down to peaking for a race and you have sufficient base and properly went through the hill phase etc, the intensity really looks daunting, if you ask me.
He just does not prescribe anaerobic work while you are conditioning (with long miles at the top of your aerobic capacity). BECAUSE anaerobic work at the wrong time can bring down your cardio development. This does not mean the 10 milers and 22 milers are easy easy miles, they are quite steady/hard.
So what this bulls..t about lack of ambition?
Take a person from ANY country and have them run to school and back several miles and or walk very fast to school and back, then to friend's places and have them play soccer and do chores on foot every day, for their entire existance. Let's say they grow up at elevation...maybe...maybe not. Now their weight is low throughout their life with fantastic natural diet.
Then imagine this same person turns out to love running and loves competing....over their first 15-20 years of life he/she have built a big heart, capillary bed development and muscular development for ....wait for it....running.
Then recruit them, train them, watch them fly.
Or let's take an American kid who gets a ride to school everyday after eating pop tarts or fibreless, refined carb/sugary breakfast. Have them very slowly ride a bike to their friend's, stopping at 7/11 for a slurpee and snickers.
They take out the garbage and maybe vacuum their room. The kid grows up with a coefficient of video control reflex and opposable thumbs, conditioned well enough to fight a small war from an armchair.
Have this kid run for the bus...one block...
This person will HATE the idea of running - it hurts.
You cannot take a runner with no or moderate conditioning and throw them into endless speed work and expect them to run as well as they could if they followed the physiogical path that Lydiard so simply lays out.
Any runner who has run well, has whether they recognize it or not, developed a well conditioned cardio system first.
On purpose or by lifestyle.
Glenn, if a young endurance runner can run 12x400 in 60 with 60 rest and still recover in 2 days, wouldnt you expect that he can run 12x 800 in 2.08 with the same recovery very soon after. That is 26.40 pace for 10000m
Glenn McCarthy wrote:
wellnow,
being able to run 12 x 400 in 60 with 60 seconds rest does not equate to a sub 27 minute 10 km. I have known runners who did not do enough endurance work and because of their 47 second 400 speed could run that workout in their dreams. However they could not string together 4 of them and run a 4 minute mile. As I said, one workout does not make a program or a runner. Putting the cart before the horse, to me, means that you give a runner workouts from some article that indicated ""so-and-so", during his build-up to his 26:XX performance ran 10 x 1 km in 2:40 with a 60 second recovery". It does not tell how he went from being a 28 minute runner to sub-27, just what he did when he was already there. As a coach you get the athlete where he is and take him to his best, you work at it, you do not give a 29 minute 21 year old 10 km runner that workout and expect him to run sub 27. That is what I meant cart (this specific workout) before the horse (runner who has the potential to run sub 27 but is currently at 29) because it will do more damage than good.
Good discussion. You just need to be open to the reason the Lydiard approach works is because it is VERY flexible and can take runners to the top. Viren did that with 4 Olympic golds and world records to boot.
Glenn
You just don´t get it. The question, like the previous posters said, is how do you get somebody to be able to do a session like 12x800 in 2,08. You can have young runners running 12x800 weekly for years and they won´t become top runners because they don´t have the correct background training. It wasn´t monster interval sessions in their teens that made El G, Geb etc. world class, it was patient, long-term, well-planned training.
wellnow wrote:Glenn McCarthy wrote:Glenn, if a young endurance runner can run 12x400 in 60 with 60 rest and still recover in 2 days, wouldnt you expect that he can run 12x 800 in 2.08 with the same recovery very soon after. That is 26.40 pace for 10000m
wellnow,
being able to run 12 x 400 in 60 with 60 seconds rest does not equate to a sub 27 minute 10 km. I have known runners who did not do enough endurance work and because of their 47 second 400 speed could run that workout in their dreams. However they could not string together 4 of them and run a 4 minute mile. As I said, one workout does not make a program or a runner. Putting the cart before the horse, to me, means that you give a runner workouts from some article that indicated ""so-and-so", during his build-up to his 26:XX performance ran 10 x 1 km in 2:40 with a 60 second recovery". It does not tell how he went from being a 28 minute runner to sub-27, just what he did when he was already there. As a coach you get the athlete where he is and take him to his best, you work at it, you do not give a 29 minute 21 year old 10 km runner that workout and expect him to run sub 27. That is what I meant cart (this specific workout) before the horse (runner who has the potential to run sub 27 but is currently at 29) because it will do more damage than good.
Good discussion. You just need to be open to the reason the Lydiard approach works is because it is VERY flexible and can take runners to the top. Viren did that with 4 Olympic golds and world records to boot.
Glenn
It only seems ridiculous to those who lack vision and awareness.
To run the first session, the 400's the athlete has to be in awesome shape, not someone who can run a 47 second 400, probably around a 51 but with good endurance.
That I see in a lot of young athletes....awesome fitness. They need some guidance to believe that they can extend their natural endurance. They will only get that guidance from a very small number of coaches.