What if I told you... wrote:
Idiot. Galen Rupp does easy runs at 5:30 pace. 6:30 is slow, not fast.
Rupp is on drugs, Ritz is probably no longer on those drugs.
What if I told you... wrote:
Idiot. Galen Rupp does easy runs at 5:30 pace. 6:30 is slow, not fast.
Rupp is on drugs, Ritz is probably no longer on those drugs.
US vs Japan wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Whoops! I kind of repeated what someone else posted.
7:30 pace would be excruciatingly slow for someone at Ritz's level. In my prime, I would have raced about 30 seconds a mile slower than him and would have hated 8:00 pace. Is there any reason at all to think running 6:30 pace, instead, would increase the risk of injury?
Your marathon PB? Americans are good at track stuff(mainly mile and shorter). But are horrible at the marathon, because the training philosophy/attitude that works for the mile, doesn't work for the marathon. There's a reason why Japan has almost a hundred sub 2:10 marathoners and the US only has only 13. Despite the US having almost triple the population of Japan. But you can turn this around and point out how many more sub 4 minute milers/1500 equivalent the US has to Japan. But this just shows the attitude needs to change if you want to be good at the marathon. The US runners to do this i.e. Scott Fauble and Ryan Hall, doing their easy days 7 minute pace or slower. Show what one needs to do to excel at the marathon.
I understand what you're trying to say, but 7:30 pace isn't an effort, it's a pace. You run easy based on effort. 7:30 would be too easy.
He should pace Stinson to a respectable PB.
Here's a story about easy days easy:
rojo wrote:
Alan's take wrote:
He really seems to stress that runners tend to run too slow on their easy days. He gives the exampe of how his wife improved significantly when she forcibly raised her easy pace from 7:30s to 6:30s. I find that it's better to let your body dictate.Thoughts?
When I moved to flagstaff in early 2000 - just months before the birth of LetsRun.com to train with Weldon for the 2000 Trials, I couldn't believe how slow he was running.
I had just run a marathon (well I guess he had as well as he paced me for the whole thing) but when I started back up, I was like "this pace is a joke. He's trying to make the Olympics. I can't even make the Trials and he's running this slow"
I called up John Kellogg and said, "Do you want to me secretely push the pace on our easy days like at least 15 seconds a mile, he won't know I'm doing it?"
John said, "We'll worry about the easy day pace last. It's the least important thing."
We never did increase it. That's the he went from 29:49 in 10k to
28:27.
In college he ran his easy days at 6:30 pace and couldn't break 30. As a pro, he ran way more, lived at altitude and ran way slower (definitely over 7) and nearly broke 28:00.
That being said, when Nick WIllis ran with my Cornell boys one day he said to me as we were jogging at like 7:30 pace, "Do you guys always run this pace." I thought he was complaining it was so slow. I was about to start making some excuse about how we only had one meet left, etc as it was very slow that day and late in the season but before he could he added, "Thank goodness. Finally a team I can run with. I can't ever run with the Michigan guys - they just go way too fast (this was when he was a pro)."
I replied, "Don't they know you are an Olymipan? Why wouldn't they jsut slow down and run your pace?" He just sort of smiled.
Just a suggestion, but maybe Ritz should take some notes from Willis.
Kipchoge claims he does his easy days around 6:40/ mile pace.
I cant find any info about Bekele's easy pace. Anybody have anything?
He wrote an article about his training pace on his easy days, but just before he mentioned his pace the article abruptly stopped.
What he needs to do is pace himself better in the thon. If he’s capable of 2:10 than he shouldn’t go out faster than 1:04. He keeps running the first half too fast because he think he’s still a 2:07 guy.
Ggbhh wrote:
What he needs to do is pace himself better in the thon. If he’s capable of 2:10 than he shouldn’t go out faster than 1:04. He keeps running the first half too fast because he think he’s still a 2:07 guy.
1:04 is too fast. His HM time equates to about 2:11:30 and that's what he should shoot for. The last thing he needs is another DNF or 2:15.
You are red hot wrote:
Hills FTW wrote:
He has gone 1 hour flat for the half and sub 13 for 5000. I have always thought his problem with the marathon is not doing enough mileage. Because he does most of his easy mileage sub 6 minute pace, his body won't allow him to do those 140-150+ mile weeks. If I was him, I would heavily focus on building up mileage. No faster than 7:30 pace for easy runs, get some super long runs in. Those cramping issues will go away if you build up the strength in your legs.
Brilliant Post
Ritz has been a top level runner since he was in HS over 20 years ago. He has worked with some of the top coaches in the world Wetnore Hudson Salazar and Hanson. He should start listening to anonymous people on the message boards. That is what he is missing.
LOL +1. Yeah maybe he should lose some weight too hahahahahaha.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Ggbhh wrote:
What he needs to do is pace himself better in the thon. If he’s capable of 2:10 than he shouldn’t go out faster than 1:04. He keeps running the first half too fast because he think he’s still a 2:07 guy.
1:04 is too fast. His HM time equates to about 2:11:30 and that's what he should shoot for. The last thing he needs is another DNF or 2:15.
Dathan can run 2:10 or under if the weather cooperates and he runs a smart race. 2:11:30? He's way better than that.
Rathan Ditzenhein wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
1:04 is too fast. His HM time equates to about 2:11:30 and that's what he should shoot for. The last thing he needs is another DNF or 2:15.
Dathan can run 2:10 or under if the weather cooperates and he runs a smart race. 2:11:30? He's way better than that.
His last good marathon was a 2:11 in 2015. If he can run as fast as you think, he should save it for the trials.
WinnytheBish wrote:
US vs Japan wrote:
Your marathon PB? Americans are good at track stuff(mainly mile and shorter). But are horrible at the marathon, because the training philosophy/attitude that works for the mile, doesn't work for the marathon. There's a reason why Japan has almost a hundred sub 2:10 marathoners and the US only has only 13. Despite the US having almost triple the population of Japan. But you can turn this around and point out how many more sub 4 minute milers/1500 equivalent the US has to Japan. But this just shows the attitude needs to change if you want to be good at the marathon. The US runners to do this i.e. Scott Fauble and Ryan Hall, doing their easy days 7 minute pace or slower. Show what one needs to do to excel at the marathon.
I understand what you're trying to say, but 7:30 pace isn't an effort, it's a pace. You run easy based on effort. 7:30 would be too easy.
Hmm, this reminds me of a question I've always had -- when I'm in great shape, 8 minute mile pace is also a joke in terms of effort, but I enjoy jogging it on recovery days and find my body benefits from it.
Ritz is way faster than I'll ever be, but isn't there a point where if he and I were running slowly it would be equally easy for both of us? Maybe 9 minute pace?
And if that's so, then is there much difference for him, aerobically, to be doing his recovery/maintenance miles at 6:30 pace (presumably super easy for him anyway) vs. 8 minute pace?
My hunch is that over the years he's pushed the envelope on his recovery days, going too fast. Yes, he's really good, and so it's still "easy." But it may also have not been the best approach in terms of keeping him healthy -- or preparing him for the marathon.
And if he's not getting much aerobic benefit at 6:30 pace, not at 8 minute pace, then why rush the pace -- especially if slowing down a tad may help him (or could have helped him in years past) sustain higher mileage more consistently and healthfully.
As such, I don't discount the poster above who advocated this, and I'm not convinced the fact that he's trained under Wetmore, Salazar and Hudson should indicate that there might have been a better path for him. All those guys strike me as running people into the ground, and Ritz seems able to run as well as anyone that way...until he inevitably breaks.
WinnytheBish wrote:
US vs Japan wrote:
Your marathon PB? Americans are good at track stuff(mainly mile and shorter). But are horrible at the marathon, because the training philosophy/attitude that works for the mile, doesn't work for the marathon. There's a reason why Japan has almost a hundred sub 2:10 marathoners and the US only has only 13. Despite the US having almost triple the population of Japan. But you can turn this around and point out how many more sub 4 minute milers/1500 equivalent the US has to Japan. But this just shows the attitude needs to change if you want to be good at the marathon. The US runners to do this i.e. Scott Fauble and Ryan Hall, doing their easy days 7 minute pace or slower. Show what one needs to do to excel at the marathon.
I understand what you're trying to say, but 7:30 pace isn't an effort, it's a pace.
And it's a stride length multiplied by millions of strides in a year. It's not simply about taxing the engine, it's about a brittle chassis which has shown a strong propensity to break in the past.
I remember hearing Kevin Hanson speak on training and was asked How slow is too slow?
He responded by explaining that runners who are injury prone are often hurt because of form breakdown and that faster runners need to be careful that running too slow will often change your form and lead to injury.
This sticks with me today with my own running.
Ritz is finished with the thon. Lagat is ahead of him now. If Ritz doesn't DNF it will be close to 2:15. 10 miles is his best distance. I look forward to Lagat being in another Olympics.
restUP wrote:
Now that the Olympic trials are a Gold event, he should save himself a bit.
Agree. He's more cards to play now. And he probably can't wait for another positive marathon experience. He doesn't need to chase Olympic Standard. Maybe he will go 65-66/half and pick up from there? That fast Parker can go as well, no?
In my late 30’s and my marathon pace is 6:30. I know I would struggle to recover and get high volume if I ran just 1-1:30 a minute slower than my thon pace on easy days. I need more like 2-3 minutes slower. I understand I’m just a hobbyyogger but 7:30-8:00 pace is no yogging for me and I assume 6-6:30 pace is not yogging for him.
Nextgeni wrote:
It’d be best to go out in 63:30 and try to pick off runners.
In what world would it be wise for a runner whose last marathon (and only finished marathon in years) was 2:16 and who just ran 47:4x for 10 miles to go out in 63:30?
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Ggbhh wrote:
What he needs to do is pace himself better in the thon. If he’s capable of 2:10 than he shouldn’t go out faster than 1:04. He keeps running the first half too fast because he think he’s still a 2:07 guy.
1:04 is too fast. His HM time equates to about 2:11:30 and that's what he should shoot for. The last thing he needs is another DNF or 2:15.
I think a lot of people are forgetting Ritz ran 1:01:24 in February. Probably just Rupp and Korir are faster than that. I know he ran poorly at Boston after going out in 1:04:41 but I think he still has something left. I know Fauble/Ward ran well at Boston but I think it was still a touch on the warmer/humid side that day. If he gets a cool weather day in Chicago I don't see what's wrong going out in 1:03-1:04. There will be a lead group out in 1:02ish and then probably a 1:03:30ish group and then a 1:05 group. I don't see why he needs to be conservative at this stage in his career. He doesn't have that many good shots left at it. Why not go for a PB? He's a professional, I don't think his mindset for the Trials changes if he runs a controlled 2:11-2:13 or blows up at 2:07 pace to another 2:16. He's still going to be a contender on talent alone.
NERunner053 wrote:
He's a professional, I don't think his mindset for the Trials changes if he runs a controlled 2:11-2:13 or blows up at 2:07 pace to another 2:16.
Yeah I'm going to disagree.