Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

thoughtsleader - I'm clapping mentally right now - what. a. battle. those last few miles. thats what it is all about! Given your mileage - I think you have a lot of potential if you ramp up to 70-75MPW. Do you encounter a lot of hills during your usual runs?

Northener - I couldn't stop thinking of the movie "In Bruges" when you described the town - if you have not seen it, check it out, its a very very dark comedy. Fantastic effort - And I am happy to hear that you recovered with some much needed carbs / wheat :) - I will take your advice and go for the 2:50 ...why not!

Lets keep this up!

Toadlips wrote:

Northener wrote:

Both me and my wife cook, so there’s no chance for chicken in different forms everyday… ?.

LOL! Well played, Northener, well played... :)

So, do you have any words of wisdom regarding recovery? What will these next few weeks look like for you? Will you be building or maintaining your fitness over the winter? Do you have another race planned in Spring? I'm curious!

I looked at the plan you provided way back when this thread started, which consists of 3 workouts per week: MP, 800 repeats, and long w/MP at end. Did you do any "filler" easy miles? Would you mind sharing your weekly mileage? Can you spare a little morsel for the hungry? Not all of us are chefs!! :)

Regarding recovery, everyone is different. I don't think of running at all for minimum 1wk. I just eat a lot of junk food and drink whatever I want. For winter training I basically just trot at 8min pace in hilly terrain like 40mi/wk. I do one workout / week that is based on feel. Something like this: 20-40min doing 1' ON followed by 1' OFF, or 2'/2, 4'/4', 8'/8'. The longer ones should feel like threshold and the shorter ones like 8-10k speed. I do this in hilly terrain and sometimes it's uphill and sometimes it's downhill. This takes away all stress to try to hit any paces but keeps some crispness in the legs. Also I keep one long run/wk 1h45min -2h (8mi-pace trot). When spring comes, I start doing strides and then I'm ready to move to the flat and hit paces for T runs etc. Do an early race 5k, 10k or whatever to assess starting point for paces.

Regarding the marathon plan I posted earlier. I modified it a bit. Last year I stuck to the plan, but in the end the long runs 2h + 10k MP brought me over the top and I got sick instead. So what I did was change that to 2h + 5k MP. That worked. The program looks easy, but once you hit wk 8 or so is mentally really hard. Every run is a workout and it wears on you. Not for everybody, but works. And yes, I added some really slow E pace in between sometimes. But kept them really easy. The hardest weeks I didn't add so much. At that point I was running 45-50mi/wk of which 90% was quality. Hard as s**t!!

Over my running years I've noted that to much focus on marathon drain me. 2yrs is fine working for 2 autumn races. But then I need a break from marathon. So I have decided to try to better my half marathon PR next year. It is 1.21.10 from 2016. Last year I did 1.21.23 and this year 1.22.5x (not all out). This indicates that I might be able to get a PR even at 47 if I really give it a shot! I will!

I just started logging on strava. Any of you guys that want to follow me, just go into bruges marathon results. i'm the guy in 3rd place in M45. Find me on strava! Any of you in this thread! I'd like to follow your continued struggles forward next season.

Scanning back a few pages to review results, and wow what a fine autumn so far. Sorry if I missed anyone in my comments below -- and, are there any marathons this weekend? Who's next?

Thank you to everyone for their kind and helpful comments along this journey - it feels great to finally see a marathon time that starts with "2"! More than 20 years of 3s and 4s as my training was perpetually off-and-on. Tough to be consistent with career, kids, etc. Job has settled down some now, sons are in high school, makes it a little easier.

Good luck to everyone who's hoping to make the 2021 Boston cutoff. No Boston plans for me. I ran it years ago (that was actually my last sub-3 before this one) - it was fun, but those big events are no longer worth the hassle and expense to me.

Next for me is to chase sub-17 for 5K. One of my sons runs, is a freshman in high school and getting close to 17:00, so we'll see who gets there first, ha.

highhopping - That 5000 time trial is impressive, as was your 16-mile run on Sunday. I ran the same 5K time in a road race a week before my marathon. With a few months more training, you'll certainly be way faster that 3:00.

Harry Plopper - I've forgotten your HM time from last week, but that's a great-looking month of training. I like the 9-day cycle.

Jack Horner - 2:53:47. Great job maintaining pace after those quick middle miles. Congrats!

THOUGHTS - 2:56:52. What a great report, and impressive result on low mileage. Interesting that most of the guys on this thread run pretty modest volume. Seems like there are a lot of threads where people are running 70-mile weeks, and struggling to run low 3 hours.

Hello There - Somehow, I missed your time?? You're recovery is remarkable. Looking forward to seeing your HM result. When I was young, I experienced big fitness boosts after marathon efforts, hope you do too. Already, that solo 10,000 is darn impressive. Regarding MP in training, even Jack Daniels writes specifically that MP offers no physiological benefit beyond running Easy Pace - he says includes it mainly for psychological reasons. For me, MP is extremely challenging in training, and if anything, I would find it mentally DISCOURAGING to attempt it.

Northener - 2:55:52. Wonderful story, fine racing on the cobblestones, and your English is better than most Americans'!

Toadlips - 3:04:21. Regarging marriage, I was way too hasty the first time - proposed three months after first meeting my wife. Six years this time! I'm with you with the long, easy mileage, although my totals fall a bit short. Thanks for sharing the stats, fascinating! Regarging MP training, as I mentioned to Hello There, that's very challenging for me. I rarely run faster than that in training - 5K-pace repeats, a few LT-pace miles as part of progressions.

Eric - 2:58:34. Congrats on the sub-3! I know the challenges of trying to lose weight, gain fitness, raise kids. 20 years since my last PR.

finallysub17 - 2:55:35. Great write-up, and amazing result. Very impressive that you didn't panic after seeing that 2-mile split. Yikes! As a youth, in my (still) PR marathon, I overreacted after a slow first mile - lined up too far back, got caught in the crowd on a very narrow road. I was looking for 6:06 pace and was 7:00 at 1 mile. When things finally opened up at 3 miles, I dropped a 5:20 to get back on target. Ha! Paid for it later, I think, and missed my goal by a half-minute.

Effillo - 2:47. Very nice! Congratulations, and good luck with the half marathons. I'm switching focus to 5Ks for a while. Haven't broken 17 in 20 years, could run two consecutive 17-flats back then.

runnerchef - Sub 2:50, man, you're ready!

18342772 - 2:55:30. Curious about your marathon history and training - low mileage, high mileage?

GR's wife - 2:53:20. Fantastic time for F40. Looks like pretty modest mileage, too, but man there are a few killler workouts there, 4 x 3-mile at MP with 1-mile fast, 1-mile easy as recoveries?! Am I reading that right?

free_the_thigh - 3:14:50. 5Ks for a while? Let's get after it! The great thing about the shorter races, besides running fast, is that you can race OFTEN.

Heavier dude - 2:48:48. Super impressive. Are you still checking in here? What's next for you?

Coffee monster - 2:44:30. Fastest time so far on this thread?

IndyJ - 3:05:58. Winter training plans, spring 2020 goals?

Tebow Pinot, shapeshifter - Maybe I scanned back too quickly, but didn't spot your results. Hello There, too, i'm probably just blind this morning.

@Toadlips: I think I forgot that the cold weather would completely kill my iPhone's battery. Had np with juice on any prior runs, and the app usually takes maybe 40% over 2:30. I should've truthfully had just a black screen with splits only during the race to be safe. I think next one I won't run without a phone at all (especially if it's Boston), and just have a trusty watch and soak in the atmosphere.

@Northener: btw awesome race for you and Bruges I actually saw the movie with Colin Farrell. It kinda poked fun at Bruges while making it look awesome at the same time. On miles 21-26.2, it really was all will-power! I didn't feel good, it felt like disaster was possible, but I also knew like walking or dropping to an 8 min pace wouldn't make me feel any better and I'd regret it. So I just had to do the best with what I had as far as semi-compromised legs ha. I wish I'd had more of the mental fortitude in my high school and college years, but better late than never.

@runnerchef: I agree I could do really well if I upped the mileage. Easiest think I can do is up my days run per week from roughly 5 out of every 6 to just going daily (with the occasional day off). Secondly my loop in Central Park is 6 miles and I could easily add a 3rd circuit to make it 8.6-9 mi. Those changes would get me to 70 mpw. I will definitely consider. Realistically it'd be adding an extra 30 mins or so daily as I'd have to slow from 7:20 run avg to probably more 7:45-8:15. Still I will definitely consider. I'd like to run the NYC marathon and would need a 1:20 half. I think I could run 1:21 off of what I do, but sub-1:20? I need more mileage and commitment. As for my route and hills, it's pretty gently rolling. I do the outer loop of Central Park for my long runs, that has some. My staple run is the bridle path extended 2x which has small hills on the outer parts and is gently rolling on the path.

Right now, I'm hoping to get an easy run in tmw or Thursday with my fiancee (9:30-10' pace). My legs are thrashed especially quads and hammy but no injuries and think they will improve. Want to have an outside shot of Turkey Trot glory.

@lastchance just seeing your comment. Thanks, man. The RRW thread inspires me because many of those guys are so fast and they race and run so much (races once a month, 70-110 mpw) and with such consistency/quality you see the synergy when they hit 2:30 marathons and the like. But elsewhere I do see people running a lot more than me (especially if you factor in time run) and sometimes not hitting the same times. No doubt talent and age factors. A weird psychological edge I have in a marathon is for years (mostly college and right after) I probably ran too fast on easy runs...Running 6:30-6:45 pace fresh after a taper just isn't gonna feel hard (for a while) when it comes down to it. HM pace intimidates me, MP does not.

By the way, your race report was awesome and amazing to snap the drought after two decades. What you did for the kid is really cool, and I'd like to think that selflessness led to some good karma for you. Also, I think you're right on about MP pace. I suspect I was in the zone way less than before my first one. With upped mileage and workouts where I ran more like 6:00 pace, it just wasn't happening that often aside from the occasional stretch of miles on a fresh long run and a random mile on a steady day where I was far removed from a long run/workout.

last chance runner wrote:

18342772 - 2:55:30. Curious about your marathon history and training - low mileage, high mileage?

This was my sixth marathon--third on the road--and my first in four years. I've done eight trail ultras as well, with several of those more recent. Previous PR was 3:28:08 on a pretty tough trail course, and my road best was almost one minute slower. So, not a very glorious history.

I got my 5K down to 16:59 in June, and did really well at a July trail 50K, so I felt I should be able to find the midpoint between those two and run a decent road marathon. That, and my girlfriend wanted to break 3 also, so our long runs simply could be shared. (Sadly, she didn't make it; but she's healthy and ready to take another shot.)

When focusing on ultras, I usually settle around 70 a week, with little regard for pace. Coming off that focus, I probably averaged about 55-60 a week--but I don't wear a Garmin or track religiously. I tried to hit faster 800s or mile reps on Tuesday, a "by feel" 6 mile tempo on Thursday, and then 12-23 miles on Saturday, with quite a bit at 6:50 pace.

I really wanted to emphasize marathon pace this cycle, since all my shorter distances suggest 6:50 shouldn't be too fast, and I've done well enough at ultras that 26.2 shouldn't be too far. But shorter distances are shorter, and ultras are slower. Road marathons are hard because you have to further than is easy at faster than is easy. (As you all know!)

For the race itself: I was very nervous and ran the first 5K disastrously fast (6:11 pace, said the person next to me), but otherwise executed pretty well. My energy stayed high, but my left calf and hamstring really lost it the last few miles. I was on 6:35 pace until about 22, and then haltingly ran it in.

Still, I'm very pleased. No one should complain about a half-hour PR, and I still think there's a lot of room to improve. I'm still only 31, and didn't pick this sport up until I was 22. More and better training, without starting like an idiot, and I think I could work down towards 2:50 and maybe 2:45 someday.

last chance, i'm bringing up the rear with a 3:17 back on 10/6. It was a fairly comfortable negative split. Using it as a springboard towards weight loss and a sub 3 marathon in the spring. It seems to have worked as an excellent stimulus as my last 2 weeks have been fantastic (feeling very light and poppy, back to 50 mpw, strong 10k TT a few nights ago, etc.) aside from the first 3-4 days post marathon not running :D

last chance runner wrote:

Heavier dude - 2:48:48. Super impressive. Are you still checking in here? What's next for you?

Still checking on the thread, have enjoyed reading the race reports and seeing most people get that sub-3.

I am going to use Chicago as a 2021 Boston qualifier. I like the race and Boston in general. Decided that as long as I am able, I'll run Boston on each running of it divisible by 5. No marathons planned for next year, will hop back on my bike this winter and spring and get back into duathlon shape. Will probably keep running mileage in the 40 mpw range and then maybe do some type of build for a half marathon in the fall. I've never trained specifically for a half. Have run a 1:20:16 before, would be cool to go under 1:20. Most importantly though, is to recover, get a few fast runs in, then achieve turkey trot glory!!!

Yes, that was the workout, correct. Thought process was that she could run 12 miles continuous at MP, so breaking it up was actually quite manageable and a good workout for confidence without burying herself.

[quote]last chance runner wrote:

GR's wife - 2:53:20. Fantastic time for F40. Looks like pretty modest mileage, too, but man there are a few killler workouts there, 4 x 3-mile at MP with 1-mile fast, 1-mile easy as recoveries?! Am I reading that right?

2:55:40 for me. I would not recommend running a marathon on 25 mpw. I got it done but I am a broken man now. The lack of long training runs really killed me. Fitness was fine. I'm sure I am in good shape to run a fast 5k. Average HR was 157 and I was never breathing heavy or feeling particularly tired. It was the aching muscles that made it a struggle. Even before half way my hips were hurting. Calves were like rocks for the last 8 miles. Two days later and walking is still uncomfortable. Hips are sore and achilles and ankles are swollen.

It was a slow start with traffic and narrow roads. 4:21 for the first km. Then I panicked a little after the slow split and ran 4:03 for the next km. After that it settled down and I got sucked along around 4:06 - 4:10 pace the rest of the way. Faster than I had planned but it's hard to slow down when you get into a rhythm and are running in a pack. I took the foot off the gas at 38km knowing sub 3 was in the bag. Then I had a nice sprint finish. 3:20 pace for the last 500m. Even still I got out sprinted by a guy wearing a Hawaiian shirt!

Right now with my broken body I don't feel like I'll ever do another marathon. I'll stick to the shorter stuff. But if I do another one I will have some sense and follow a traditional training plan.

Tebow Pinot wrote:

2:55:40 for me. I would not recommend running a marathon on 25 mpw. I got it done but I am a broken man now. The lack of long training runs really killed me.

Incredible! 23 seconds ahead of me, I was running long runs and nearly twice the mileage. Congrats, and heal up. Wonder what you'll do if you actually train for a marathon?!

Here's a breakdown of my training through 2019 from January to race last week.

Number of weeks: 42wks

Weeks with no training: 4wks

Weeks with 20mi or less: 5wks

Total weekly average: 35mi/wk

Top 8wks average: 42mi/wk (had two of those over the year and one was last 8wks before marathon)

Max weekly mileage: 52miles

Long runs 16-18miles: 12

Long runs 19-22miles: 12

Races: 4. (10k hilly trail (april), 10mi trail (aug) 2 halfs 1.22.40 (may), 1.22.52 (sept)

I'm a low mileage guy. I find that 40mi/wk suits my life and ambitions very well. I can do 50 over, say 10wks. more than that brings me over the top and I feel that the running becomes too much.

In order to be able to pull off a 2.55.52 a lot of the miles are workouts. Mostly MP last 12-15wks or so and 800 reps at 5-8k speed. Also a lot of long runs in there and a lot of those with 5-10k MP finishes to harden the legs and head. I don't mind doing big workouts and then rest a day between. It feels that my body can absorb that quite good as opposed to add too much E running in between. I changed to this approach a couple of years back and it made me get my motivation back. Basically, I had to accept that I'm older and find a recipe that worked for me instead of trying to keep a training regime that worked when I was younger.

Bravo sir - that’s an impressive result on 25MPW. You laid it out there and now can chill a bit

Northener - good breakdown - agree with your post, sport is about longevity and consistency - I want to be able to do this as long as I can! I’m about 40MPW on average for the year with the last 12 being at 65MPW - usually am a 25-40 type runner with a 6-8 week triathlon focus (run less than 20 miles per week). Thinking about ramping up running a bit but we will see...

Thanks, Northener, this is excellent info. A single workout w/40 mpw seems to be enough to maintain some fitness over the winter. Also, strides are one of the things I neglected from Jack Daniels' plan during my E runs. They probably do a lot more than I gave them credit for -- for whatever reason I never got in the habit and just put them out of my mind. After reviewing my pace breakdown from this last cycle, I see that there were very few miles run harder than T pace. Over the winters in the past, I've just done easy mileage with no workouts or strides, and I don't think that prepares me well for the spring. Last winter I wasn't consistent even with easy mileage, so I didn't have a lot of quality or mileage to build off of. That wasn't necessarily because I didn't want to run. After the previous Marathon, I was really beat up and had some chronic injuries that I wanted to get rid of. The funny thing is that my plantar fasciitis never went away and I finally said "eff it" and started ramping up my mileage -- then it went away! :) (I did start to focus on loosening up my calves, which probably helped.)

I would be really cool if you could snag a HM PR at 47, and you have had a great marathon season, so ride that momentum to PR glory!

I've been thinking about getting into Strava! Thank you for the generous offer and for your training insights!!

Toadlips - strava is great highly recommend it

Northener - added

17:43 won the 5K at the Turkey Trot near where my fiancee lives. Feeling probably up for an easy run today, and maybe a steady diet of them the next month. Sprinkle in a workout or two and I will take a shot (well I'll stay in striking distance) if the weather is above 30 degrees.

runnerchef wrote:

Toadlips - strava is great highly recommend it

Northener - added

Nice! Added you as well. I imported my training to strava a couple of weeks ago. Seems like a good site to use.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

17:43 won the 5K at the Turkey Trot near where my fiancee lives. Feeling probably up for an easy run today, and maybe a steady diet of them the next month. Sprinkle in a workout or two and I will take a shot (well I'll stay in striking distance) if the weather is above 30 degrees.

nice!! Turkey trots are the best. Steady diet of slow runs + good food + good cheer. Great time of the year.